Adam Holland: Oregon "Peace" Group to Mark Kristallnacht with Holocaust Denial Conference





Here's another story concerning what appears to be a trend: purported"peace activists" promoting Holocaust denial and anti-Semitic conspiracy theory. In this case, a University of Oregon peace organization called Pacifica Forum, which was founded and is led by a retired professor and a retired administrator from that university, is marking Kristallnacht with two days of speeches and conferences this weekend conducted by Mark Weber director of the Holocaust denial group Institute for Historical Review. Weber, the former editor of the National Vanguard, the main publication of the neo-Nazi National Alliance Party, has spent the past 30 years as a professional advocate of Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism. His opening lecture on Friday is entitled:"Free Speech vs. Zionist Power". Advertisements for the event feature the image of a snake in the shape of a Star of David with the legend"The Israel Lobby: How Powerful Is It?" November 9 marks the 69th anniversary of Kristallnacht, which is considered by many historians to be the beginning of the Holocaust. (Pacifica Forum schedule available here.)

In 2006, the Pacifica Forum sponsored multiple talks by Valdas Anelauskas. Anelauskas, who was born in Lithuania, is an author and internet journalist who calls himself a"white separatist and racialist", and has affiliations on both the far left and far right. In an email to a reporter for the Eugene, Oregon Register-Guard, he stated"I believe people have to live among their own kind ... I feel no supremacy - I just want to be separate and live in my own environment." In October, 2006, Anelauskas gave a lecture on"Zionism and Russia" in which he blamed Jews for the Bolshevik Revolution, calling them"the greatest killing machine in history" and stating that American Jews suppress dissemination of this information through their control of academia and the media. He dedicated this lecture to Holocaust denier Germar Rudolf. (Read here; more here and here).

According to a news report (read here):

During a question-and-answer period, Aviva Sainz called Anelauskas' lecture"anti-Jewish garbage in a tradition that has lasted for centuries." His talk, she told him,"is in the tradition of Hitler's `Mein Kampf.'""There's a lot of truth in `Mein Kampf,'" Anelauskas responded. Afterward, (Pacifica Forum co-leader Orval) Etter said he was"unable to say" if Anelauskas' lecture could be characterized as anti-Semitic.

Anelauskas is a friend and supporter of Ward Churchill, who assisted Anelauskas with his book Discovering America As It Is. He has endorsed in print Churchill's statement calling 9/11 victims"little Eichmanns", going so far as to use the same phrase with respect to the administration of the University of Oregon when they rescinded an invitation for Churchill to lecture there (read here). [By the way, America As It Is has been endorsed by Howard Zinn, David G. Gil, and Ward Churchill (read here).]

The founders and leaders of Pacifica Forum are Orval Etter and George Beres. Beres, who was the manager of the UO Speakers Bureau and was UO Sports Information Director, has retired from those positions and is currently a columnist for a number of internet publications including Counterpunch and is a member of the Oregon Interreligious Committee for Peace in the Middle East. Just two days ago, a pro-free speech piece he authored was published on the anti-Semitic ziopidia.com. (Read here) In the midst of his piece is a fund raising ad reading:

"Help us increase awareness of Jewish supremacism (sic)and the sick(ening) evilness of Zionism. Donate US$10 US$20 US$50 US$100 US$200 more.... or send us an email [email address deleted] with the details of your pledge."

Beres' Counterpunch writings include one (read here) which, along with some seriously deficient historical background (he writes that Muslim anti-Christianity began in response to the Crusades, ignoring several hundred years of Muslim conquest and oppression of Christians), details some of his reasons for being anti-Israel. He says that he personally feels himself to be a victim of Israel. He says that he is of Greek extraction and grew up with many Arab Eastern Orthodox Christians."Few in America realizes (sic) how the Eastern Church, along with innocent Muslims, is under attack in Lebanon and Palestine by (a) rare alliance between Judaism and fundamentalist Christianity. I also am a target, and am overdue in speaking out." Just how he has been a target of Judaism, he doesn't make clear.

With respect to Orval Etter, who is a 90 year old emeritus professor of public affairs and administration, the Eugene, Oregon Register-Guard reports (read here) that

he organized the forum after he"became convinced that Israel was a very tyrannical state." He said he recalls reading a pamphlet that asserted that"what Israel is doing to Palestine is a holocaust."
That same article states that

Pacifica Forum topics (in 2006) included a lecture by Etter on British historian David Irving, a Holocaust denier who in February was sentenced to three years' imprisonment in Austria for his views. Critics say they attended another forum that featured a videotape on William Luther Pierce, founder of the National Alliance white separatist group.

It was the lecture on David Irving which first attracted Anelauskas to the group.

I have previously recently written about"9/11 truth" advocates and (alleged) peaceniks in the Aspen, Colorado area promoting Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism (read here and here and here and here). I found that story of small-town bigotry shocking, but I consider this one to be more so. While both stories deal with crackpots seeking attention for themselves on the peripheries between far left and far right, the Pacifica Forum story involves academics legitimizing those peripheries by providing the most extreme forms of anti-Semitism and conspiratorial paranoia a forum within a major university (albeit in an unofficial forum). They have done this with the assistance of friends and allies on both the far left and far right and the tacit approval of those who do nothing to oppose them.

My concern with all these stories is that we must not allow racism and anti-Semitism to be legitimized in our public discourse. If we ignore these people because they're crackpots, they may or may not just go away, but the ideas they promote won't. We must expose them and counter their lies forcefully with the truth.

Thankfully, I am not alone in this thinking. According to the Register-Guard:

Local critics affiliated with Community Alliance of Lane County have scheduled a free speech vigil to be held just outside the UO hall where Weber will speak. “We are operating under the theory that the best response to hate speech is more speech,” volunteer Michael Williams said. “We want an opportunity for the community to show its opposition to the kinds of things that Mark Weber stands for.”

Williams said opponents don’t plan to shout slogans or prevent people from hearing Weber’s talk. “We will have a presence that is unavoidable but not obstructionist.”

David Frank, a professor in the Honors College at the UO, said he and two faculty members are planning a Holocaust symposium in response to Weber’s talk.

Weber “has the right to come to campus and make preposterous statements,” Frank said. “But we have a responsibility as scholars to demonstrate the expertise and research that shows his claims are not only false but dangerous.”
Now that's sound thinking.

Read more about this story here:Foes target Pacifica Forum: The Register-Guard, Eugene, Ore.

Institute for Historical Research promos for the event in pdf here and here [WARNING- HOLOCAUST DENIAL WEBSITE]



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More Comments:


Joseph Mutik - 11/9/2007

The same about anti-Jewish and anti-Zionist, they are equivalent, anyone who uses anti-Zionism to cover up his/hers hatred of Jews is also a bigot.
Who would think that it's appropriate to divide the Cuban, Irish, Italian, Mexican etc. lobbies in two?
The Jews didn't have a country till 1948 but now they have one. Maybe would be easier if the Jews would be called Israelites all the time. The fact that the Jews were defined for about 2000 years only by religion makes it hard to understand for some. In our days there is a country called Israel which is the country of the Jews. For sure some bigots will say that there are non Jews in Israel. So what? Italy has Germans, Serbs, etc. but it's the country of the Italians. Croatia has Serbs and Serbia has Croats. Turkey has Kurds. Russia has ... a lot of non Russians. The list is very long, one can do his own research, so I stop here.


A. M. Eckstein - 11/9/2007

I gave you the quotes where they deny it occurred. Those quotes were specific, and they were sourced. Those quotes are damning. You said those quotes were taken out of context, or were incomplete. I asked you to PROVE your accusation that those quotes were taken out of context, or were incomplete--to prove that accusation, with facts and evidence. You have nothing to offer of a factual sort.


omar ibrahim baker - 11/9/2007

Prof
You are hopeless; every time we are engaged I regret the waste of my time and the effort spent trying to get you realize that 1+1=2!

You have miserably failed to demonstrate what you have claimed all along ;that they, Abbas, Fatah ,Hamas DID, that they DO DENY that the HOLOCAUST ever occurred!

You end up by challenging me to demonstrate that they DID NOT, DO NOT deny that it occurred!

Which is akin to demanding of some body to prove that he did NOT say or did NOT do something!
A perversion of logic that can only be construed as a refuge from the hopeless and groundless proposition you started with.

As always with you it is a waste of precious time and effort!


art eckstein - 11/9/2007

"ANY of it" doesn't mean "any part of it", Omar? Don't be ridiculous.

You haven't shown a single bit of evidence that I misquoted or took out of context the Holocaust-denying statements of Abu Masen, of HAMAS, of Mashal, of Akef the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, or of Ahmedinejad.

PROVE with SPECIFIC evidence that the statements which I quoted were distorted, as you have charged. BACK UP your accusation WITH EVIDENCE, please. That's the way it is done on HNN.

As for the Jews' concern about the Holocaust being evidence of some sort of secret guilt--ask the Armenians about THEIR fury at the Turks denying the Armenian Holocaust of 1915-1917. You think this hides some sort of secret guilt? No, it is legitimate anger at the attempt to deny that something bad was done to them. Jews aren't special in their attitude here--AS HAS ALREADY BEEN STATED TO YOU WITH MULTIPLE OTHER ETHNIC EXAMPLES.

Omar, you have no facts; you have no argument. As usual.


omar ibrahim baker - 11/9/2007

Mr Friedman
I find your sentence:
"You might consider that much of the hatred expressed by Europeans is not about Israel's behavior - which is certainly no worse (and, in fact, far more humane) than the behavior of Europe in its horrible disputes - but has its origins in European style Christianity which, unlike the popular, street Christianity that pervades America, sees the only proper role of Jews as the perpetual wanderer, with no place to call home."
I find it to be very interesting anr revealing , particularly that part of it which states that:

"....is not about Israel's behavior - which is certainly no worse (and, in fact, far more humane) than the behavior of Europe in its horrible disputes"

wherein you strongly imply, practically admit, that Israel's behaviour as as colonizer in its colony, Palestine, is " ...certainly no worse (and, in fact, far more humane)" than the Europeans behaviour in their own old colonies!

Irrespective of the falsehood or veracity of the statement it must be noted here that although European policies in their colonies did involve implantation of aliens it DID NOT involve ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population as Israel's do .

The interesting thing here however is that you, together with Klinghoffer, are gradually admitting the true nature of Israel as the product of a colonialist conquest.

To accept and acknowledge the true nature of Israel as a COLONY is certainly a step forward!


omar ibrahim baker - 11/9/2007

In an effort to obfuscate matters further Friedman opines that:

"You might consider that much of the hatred (of Israel) expressed by Europeans is not about Israel's behavior - which is certainly no worse (and, in fact, far more humane) than the behavior of Europe in its horrible disputes - but has its origins in European style Christianity which, unlike the popular, street Christianity that pervades America, sees the only proper role of Jews as the perpetual wanderer, with no place to call home."

In which view he insiduously flaters the USA and its people to gain favour and at the same time denigrates Europeansfor
"Christian " reasons common to both!

Hatred and REJECTION of Israel in Europe, the USA and any where in the whole world where the FACTS of the matter are known primarily springs from , as shortly as possible, and stands on two levels:

A-The Existential LEVEL:

*Wherby the very concept of establishing a nation /state on a confessional/religious RACIST basis is rejected a priori and in principle.

That that paricular racism, Jewishness, transcends colour and dwells on Jewish blood makes it ,if any, more dangerous in that it could, and does, claim support for its views and practices in religious texts and ordinances that are, being "divine", less liable for scrutiny and analysis as Israel Shahak has demonstrated in his master works.

**The mode of birth of Israel which ,aside from the fact that its very concept is based on bogus history and is historically retrogressive, inevitably involved the DISLOCATION,DISPOSSESSION, DISFRANCHHISEMENT and SUBJUGATION of the indigenous Palestinian people and SUPPLANTING him by aliens screened and admitted on a racist basis.

Here it is well worth considering the inevitable output from Israel's racial/RACIST origins and provenance and its practicies and policies:
the total disregard , the religiously induced wilful blindness, to the rights and well being of others versus the "divinely" granted extra rights and prerogatives to Jews!

That peculiar ahistorical combination of divine extra rights and the superior human standing of the JEW versus the inferior human standing of the GOYIM according to which the JEW is welcomed to USURP the GOYIM lays at the very foundation of Israel .

B- The Practical LEVEL:

*The RACIST provenance, selectivity, of racial criteria while imbuing its holders with a sense of superiority inevitably calls on them the hatred and resentment of the non selected; ie the rest of the world

*The ingrained belief in extra rights and priviliges that legitimised usurpation , theft and aggression which ,inevitably, was resisted by the usurped necessarily lead to more of the same violence by the usurper to hold on to his loot, and human nature being what it is , to get more of the same "free" property of others...being non Jewish!
That more than any other bogus and contrivied rationales explains and justifies the hatred and rejection with which Israel is met where ever the facts are known.



omar ibrahim baker - 11/9/2007

Prof
Once again you are playing on , hiding behind, "who deny the Holocaust or any part of it"!
Here you intentionally misquoted me; my words were:
"It is so obvious that ,if any thing, people who deny it , or any of it,deserve to be met only with redicule and possibly pity".

By adding the non existant "any part" ( in more than one post ) you presume to allow yourself lee way for interpretation and extrapolation.

Actually it is malicious misinterpretation as it turned out since you ended by basing your whole argument on the ADDED "any part" which could be construed any way you choose to!
Typically unprofessorial, not unexpected though, considering !

My very words were :

"To deny that a racially motivated mega crime called the Holocaust against the Jews, and less rememberd others, occurred is akin to denying that man landed on the moon...that there is a continent called Australia that there is a Palestinian people!"
The key word , the operative word here IS "OCCURRED"; that is "took place", "happened" !
You falsely claimed that Abbas, Hamas, Fatah DENIED that It OCCURRED then failed to substantiate your claim that they DENY THAT IT EVER OCCURRED and chose instead to digress into an inane generalization about Palestinians.

Apart from creating an opportunity (based on a malicious misquotation; a non existant addition )to vent your racist hatred of the gallant Palestinian people you chose to develop a whole new bogus theme (Palestinian DENIAL OF THE OCCURRENCE OF THE HOLOCAUST) instead of answering a simple straight forward question .
Nevertheless the QUESTION still stands:
"I often wonder what is it that diturbs the Jews so much about Holocaust denial and Holocaust deniers!

That some, for which ever explicit or implicit motive they harbour, chose to deny an "undeniably" grossly heinous episode and/or historical event can neither efface history nor reduce the hyper criminality of the act....so why bother about them so much?"

IS IT THAT:

"I have a growing suspicion that having justified their own mega crime against the Palestinian people by the Holocaust and perversely used it to legitimize their own ethnic cleansing colonialist project in Palestine the Zionists are afraid that discrediting the Holocaust would delegitimize their own racist project.

The question still stands:
-Why does the denial of the obvious disturb so much so many people baffles me??"

The question will always stand ; dare we hope for an answer PROFESSOR!!!!!





N. Friedman - 11/8/2007

Arnold,

I certainly know your views since you are a regular poster.

My point is that the influence of Israel's friends comes primarily from America's self-image and ideology - including that of its rulers -, not from any lobbying.

I certainly do not deny that Israel has a strong lobby. It just does not have a lobby that makes the US do what any administration perceives to be against US interest. And, the real proof of that is America's longstanding policy of selling arms to Israel's enemies. Were Israel's lobby really to control things, Saudi Arabia (which seems to pay people to kill Israeli civilians) would not get a dime.

I do not claim that the US only acts based on the views of Americans. But, in the case of Israel, that is primarily the case as such views tend to be held by politicians, not just by the public. One only read the views expressed by people such as Woodrow Wilson or Harry Truman to know that such is the case.

Your views, to note, have a different origin. But, to many Americans - and not just religious Americans who come from a restorationist point of view about the Jewish Scriptures rather than a viewpoint closer to Marcionism -, Israel's fate and America's fate are closely bound together. That view is shared by Presidents for the entire history of the US (and even before Israel was created) and by their advisers so I do not imagine much changing on that score any time soon. If anything, the trend is the other direction.

You might consider that much of the hatred expressed by Europeans is not about Israel's behavior - which is certainly no worse (and, in fact, far more humane) than the behavior of Europe in its horrible disputes - but has its origins in European style Christianity which, unlike the popular, street Christianity that pervades America, sees the only proper role of Jews as the perpetual wanderer, with no place to call home.

Note: I was not claiming you as vehemently Anti-Israel. I was noting that your comment about the power of Israel's friends is based on a misunderstanding asserted by people, who as shown pretty well by Mead, want it every imaginable way. In short, it is largely a conspiracy theory that has no merit, since the so-called lobby is at work no matter what the result is - even if, as in the decision to invade Iraq, Israel wanted the US to do something very different, as Israel's rulers (Sharansky aside) never saw a blossoming democracy waiting to emerge in the near term Middle East.

Of course, where the vast majority of a country's population supports a cause, it is inherently the case that such might be seen as the work of a lobby when, in fact, it is just different interest groups in the normal competition of what occurs in the power game of Washington. Case in point: the Iraq war, which Israel advocated against until the US said that such was the US agenda.


N. Friedman - 11/8/2007

Arnold,

I certainly know your views since you are a regular poster.

My point is that the influence of Israel's friends comes primarily from America's self-image and ideology - including that of its rulers -, not from any lobbying.

I certainly do not deny that Israel has a strong lobby. It just does not have a lobby that makes the US do what any administration perceives to be against US interest. And, the real proof of that is America's longstanding policy of selling arms to Israel's enemies. Were Israel's lobby really to control things, Saudi Arabia (which seems to pay people to kill Israeli civilians) would not get a dime.

I do not claim that the US only acts based on the views of Americans. But, in the case of Israel, that is primarily the case as such views tend to be held by politicians, not just by the public. One only read the views expressed by people such as Woodrow Wilson or Harry Truman to know that such is the case.

Your views, to note, have a different origin. But, to many Americans - and not just religious Americans who come from a restorationist point of view about the Jewish Scriptures rather than a viewpoint closer to Marcionism -, Israel's fate and America's fate are closely bound together. That view is shared by Presidents for the entire history of the US (and even before Israel was created) and by their advisers so I do not imagine much changing on that score any time soon. If anything, the trend is the other direction.

You might consider that much of the hatred expressed by Europeans is not about Israel's behavior - which is certainly no worse (and, in fact, far more humane) than the behavior of Europe in its horrible disputes - but has its origins in European style Christianity which, unlike the popular, street Christianity that pervades America, sees the only proper role of Jews as the perpetual wanderer, with no place to call home.

Note: I was not claiming you as vehemently Anti-Israel. I was noting that your comment about the power of Israel's friends is based on a misunderstanding asserted by people, who as shown pretty well by Mead, want it every imaginable way. In short, it is largely a conspiracy theory that has no merit, since the so-called lobby is at work no matter what the result is - even if, as in the decision to invade Iraq, Israel wanted the US to do something very different, as Israel's rulers (Sharansky aside) never saw a blossoming democracy waiting to emerge in the near term Middle East.

Of course, where the vast majority of a country's population supports a cause, it is inherently the case that such might be seen as the work of a lobby when, in fact, it is just different interest groups in the normal competition of what occurs in the power game of Washington. Case in point: the Iraq war, which Israel advocated against until the US said that such was the US agenda.


A. M. Eckstein - 11/8/2007

I cited you the sources. I quoted them. You can't explain them away. YOUR statement was that those who deny the Holocaust or any part of it, deserve ridicule and pity. I agree. But *that's* what you are facing with the Fatah, Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood and Iranian spokesmen you wish so desperately to defend.

PROVE that anything I quoted from them was false. Or incomplete. Or taken out of context. That is what you asserted earlier. Where is the EVIDENCE to back up your assertion, please.


omar ibrahim baker - 11/8/2007

Prof
Stop beating around the bush.

Do YOU claim, contend, pretend, assert , preach and /or believe that:
Fatah, Abbas and Hamas DENY that a massacre was ever perpetrated by and in Nazi Germany during WW II against Jews and others?

Noting your canny ability to trivialize matters the question is :
Do they, did they, DENY that it, the massacre against Jews and others, ever took place?

The question IS NOT what they think of it, the question is: DID THEY,DO THEY DENY THAT IT, the massacre against Jews and others by Nazi Germany, ever OCCURRED during WWII?

Shall we hope for a clear straight forward answer to a simple straight forward question,Prof ?

(or would that be hoping against hope?)
DO NOT come up with new quotations and extracts...answer the simple question, Prof!


art eckstein - 11/8/2007

Omar, you don't want to face the consequences of the facts about what these leaders and organizations have said, denying the Holocaust.

YOU said that anyone who denied the Holocaust, or any PART of the Holocaust, was deserving of ridicule and pity.

Okay. I have DEMONSTRATED above that Abu Mazen and Hamas have publicly denied the Holocaust. Your only response was that I took statements out of context. In other words, I was a liar. My response was PROVE that I have taken anything out of context. And your response to that? You *cannot* back up your irresponsible and desperate accusation, and you admit that you won't even TRY to. This is because: I did not take those statements out of context.

Therefore, by YOUR own standards, Abu Mazen and Hamas are deserving of ridicule and pity as leaders...But either of course you can't bring yourself to complete the logic of your own premise, which was that anyone who said the things I have shown that Abu Mazen and Hamas said were deserving of ridicule and pity. This is because you aren't interested in discussion, or facts; you're just a desperate propagandist.

I wonder--did you even bother to *read* the statements of Abu Mazen and Hamas?

Well, here's some more:


Tuesday, January 3, 2006

English Arabic Daily Al-Hayat on Arab and Iranian deniers

Hazem Saghiya, a columnist for Al-Hayat, the London Arabic Daily, writes about the Arab and Iranian Leaders Who Deny the Holocaust. His
key comment is: "[Holocaust denial] is discussed only in intellectually and educationally retarded milieus."

He seems to recognize the damage this kind of rhetoric does to the Arab/ Palestinian cause.

He attacks Muslim Brotherhood leader Mahdi 'Akef, HAMAS LEADER KHALED MASH'AL, and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

"Mahdi 'Akef has joined Khaled Mash'al, who, in his turn, had joined [Iranian President] Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, in denying the existence of the Nazi holocaust that targeted the European Jews."

And some more:

2.

In a December 2005 speech, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said that the Holocaust was "a myth" that had been promoted to defend
Israel. "They have fabricated a legend under the name 'Massacre of the Jews', and they hold it higher than God himself, religion itself
and the prophets themselves," he said.

The remarks instantly provoked a firestorm of international controversy as well as swift
condemnation from government officials in Israel, Europe, and the United States. All six political parties in the German parliament
signed a joint resolution condemning this Holocaust denial. HAMAS POLITICAL LEDER KHALED MASH'AL CALLED AHAMDINEJAD'S REMARKS 'COURAGEOUS."

I guess we need to add, under those who are deserving of ridicule and pity under the Omar Rules, (a) Khaled Mashaal the leader of HAMAS,
(b) Madhi Akef the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, and (c) Mahmoud
Ahmedinejad, the President of Iran.

So, Omar: Are you going to be a man, and stand by your statement that any who deny the Holocaust, or any part of it, are deserving of
ridicule and even pity, and that this includes Hamas, Mashaal, Akef, and Ahmedinedjad? Or will you try to weasel out of it, or claim
I'm lying (actually, you've already done that--I've asked above for the EVIDENCE), or change the subject, ANYTHING to avoid the consequences of your own statements, now that you know what the consequences are?

PROVE that anything I have written here is inaccurate. On HNN, you cannot just *make* accusations such as you have made about things being taken out of context, etc. you have to BACK UP your accusations. BACK UP your accusation that anything I have now cited is taken out of context.


omar ibrahim baker - 11/8/2007

" DEMONSTRATE that I have taken anything said by Abu Mazen or Hamas "selectively and out of context." YOU made that accusation--now BACK IT UP. "
(Re: those deserving of ridicule and pity (#115237)
by A. M. Eckstein on November 6, 2007 at 2:05 PM)

Is as rediculous a request as could ever be made in such a context !

Do you expect of me to post evrything all; Abbas, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah and innumerable Palestinian writers ever had to say, directly and indirectly (en passant), about the Holocaust and the Palestinian /Arab- Israeli /Zionist conflict in
which the Holocaust was mentioned ?
( To negate "SELECTIVITY and " OUT OF CONTEXT" one will have to be "non selective" and "within the context " which means everything ever said on the subject! Rediculous request!)

That would be millions and millions of posts.

CONVERSELY it is up to YOU to back up your implicit claim that they DID, DO ,deny that such a massacre ever tool place!
(That should be much easier since it is much simpler to substantiate that a certain claim WAS MADE than to prove that it WAS NOT MADE, which is the essence of your request !)

MY point is very clear:
-None of them denied that a major massacre by and in Nazi Germany was perpetrated against the Jews,and many others that the Jews conviniently forget!

In other words none of them denies that such a massacre took place.

-What they dispute, with MANY MANY OTHER NON PALESTINIANS ALL OVER THE WORLD, are the figures and the conditions , to say nothing about the accomplices, to that heinous crime.

What they reject and condemn is the USE to which this abominable crime was put to which was (still is ), primarily, as a moral/legal justification for the Zionist colonization of Palestine.

Never the less the fact that you and yours object to any nonJewish friendly investigation, study, appraisal and reappraisal of the Holocaust is highly suspicious !

To the best of my knowledge the study and investigation of NO OTHER subject, than the Holocaust, is punishable by law . That is doubly suspicious and is an affront to the innocent victims of this heinous crime against the Jews, all its victims and against humanity!

The crucification of Jesus Christ, the essence of Christianity, was subjected to intense investigation
by many; to my knowledge NO LAWS exist punishing those that look into the matter or DENY IT!

The more you avoid giving a staight forward answer to my often repeated question the more this is basis and cause for SUSPICION!

Well I guess not only those that deny that the Holocaust ever took place "deserve redicule and pity" but that ALSO those that are against study and investigation of any historical event, including the heinous Holocaust, definetly "deserve redicule, pity " and condemnation; and much more so !


A. M. Eckstein - 11/6/2007

NO, Omar--you can't answer MY question. DEMONSTRATE that I have taken anything said by Abu Mazen or Hamas "selectively and out of context." YOU made that accusation--now BACK IT UP.


omar ibrahim baker - 11/6/2007


Mr Friedman (That should have been Eckstein, apologies)
To be an all powerful lobby , as is AIPPAC &Co,influencing and often dictating major policies on the US administration of the day does NOT necessarily and inevitably entail that EACH and EVERY move the LOBBY makes is a complete success.
It DOES NOT entail to be omnipotent and infalible as your statement below, which is more a case of the exception more than the rule, implies:

"I showed how many times the U.S. Congress, and various U.S. Presidents, went against expressed Israeli interests--e.g., in selling AWACS to Saudi Arabia, or $30 billion worth of armaments to the Gulf, against strong Israeli (and AIPAC) protests" .


Although in this specific case of the Saudi AWACS the Israeli lobby forced the US administration into "denuding" the AWACS , so to speak, of all sensitive components to the point that SA cancelled, or threatened to cancell, the whole order, if I recall correctly that far off episode.

Interestingly enough you bring about another important point,episode, in that the Israel lobby is ready and willing, as is perfectly understandable, to sacrifice US interests for the sake of Israel.

W&M have demonstrated beyond any doubt , by facts and figures, the extent and impact of Israeli/Zionist influence on US policy .
I guess the best gauge of the impact and scientific objective value of their book is the hysterical reaction it was met with in Zionist and Israel friendly circles.

AS I have noted success has its perils; and the perils of Zionist success will be greatest where once friends dwelt!

By the way, Mr Friedman/Eckstein, I , for one, do NOT believe that there is anything "magical" or "superhuman " about Jews although I believe I know whence their disproportionate power and influence springs which is of course another subject altogether.


omar ibrahim baker - 11/6/2007

Mr Mutik
Except for Israel, an unacceptable alien implant that colonized Palestine after dislocating , dispossessing , disfranchizing and subjugating its indigenous Arab population then supplanting them with aliens selected and screened according to a racial/racist criterion; except for Israel WE HAVE NO QUARREL WITH THE JEWS!

You do NOT help your cause nor your people by alienating a major human community that has been,hitorically,
the most tolerant and benevolent to Jews among all the major human communities.
I believe that is short sighted and ill advised and avoidable through the deZionization of Israel.
That would recreate, in Palestine, the examplary state of co existence and cooperation that we lived through in Spain!


omar ibrahim baker - 11/6/2007

That Prof is no reply!
You still fail to answer a simple question.


A. M. Eckstein - 11/6/2007

What is your evidence, Omar, that I am quoting either Abu Mazen or Hamas "selectively and out of context'?


omar ibrahim baker - 11/6/2007

Mr Friedman
To be an all powerful lobby , as is AIPPAC &Co,influencing and often dictating major policies on the US administration of the day does NOT necessarily and inevitably entail that EACH and EVERY move the LOBBY makes is a complete success.
It DOES NOT entail to be omnipotent and infalible as your statement below, which is more a case of the exception more than the rule, implies:

"I showed how many times the U.S. Congress, and various U.S. Presidents, went against expressed Israeli interests--e.g., in selling AWACS to Saudi Arabia, or $30 billion worth of armaments to the Gulf, against strong Israeli (and AIPAC) protests" .


Although in this specific case of the Saudi AWACS the Israeli lobby forced the US administration into "denuding" the AWACS , so to speak, of all sensitive components to the point that SA cancelled, or threatened to cancell, the whole order, if I recall correctly that far off episode.

Interestingly enough you bring about another important point,episode, in that the Israel lobby is ready and willing, as is perfectly understandable, to sacrifice US interests for the sake of Israel.

W&M have demonstrated beyond any doubt , by facts and figures, the extent and impact of Israeli/Zionist influence on US policy .
I guess the best gauge of the impact and scientific objective value of their book is the hysterical reaction it was met with in Zionist and Israel friendly circles.

AS I have noted success has its perils; and the perils of Zionist success will be greatest where once friends dwelt!

By the way, Mr Friedman, I , for one, do NOT believe that there is anything "magical" or "superhuman " about Jews although I believe I know whence their disproportionate power and influence springs which is of course another subject altogether.


omar ibrahim baker - 11/6/2007

Eckstein
You fail to answer a simple question!
Neither Fatah nor Hamas deny that a big massacre of Jews took place in and by Nazi Germany!
What they dispute is NOT that a nassacre took place but the figures involved and the conditions surrounding it.

They are NOT , as you are well aware , the only party to dispute that nor to deny agreat deal of the Zionist PR etc etc that go with it!

Another point they dispute is the use and misuse to which this massacre was put to : endless milking and blackmail!
Equally here they are NOT the only party .

As far as I am concerned the "figure" is immaterial; 600,000 is as heinous as 6,000,000 since it is human lives we are dealing with here not money in a bank !

And a massacre of innocent civilian bystanders as in the Holocaust is as vile as is the DEIR YASSIN massacre of Palestinians by the criminal Zionist gangs.

You quote selectively and out of context from in a manner that supports your contention which boils down to the inability to answer a simple question.

People like you, I suspect , do equate, do corelate, the historical authenticity of the Holocaust with the legality of Israel...hence their irrational fear of Holocaust denials and deniers.
That is patently wrong for Israel is an illegitimate, colonialist conquest and an alien implant with or without the Holocaust ever happening.
And the Holocaust is an abominable crime against Jews, and many others forgotten by Jews, whether it led to the usurpation of Palestine and the establishment of a Zionist/Jewish colony therein , as it certainly helped to, or did not.

Two wrongs DO NOT add up to one right; as you should know ProF!!


art eckstein - 11/6/2007

And Mutik is right that YOU, Omar, are in no position to make snide remarks about Jewish "suspect over-sensitivity" on this subject when Hitler's vile book "Mein Kampf" is a best-selling book in the Muslim world, including among the Palestinians!


art eckstein - 11/6/2007

YOU are not answering the question, Omar.

1. YOU piously stated that those who denied the Holocaust, or even part of it, are ridiculous and pitiable.

2. I DEMONSTRATED that both Abu Masen and Hamas are Holocaust deniers.

3. YOU refuse to follow your own pious statement and accept what that means, highly negatively, about the intellectual quality and historical honesty of the current Palestinian leadership. And what that means, in larger implications, for their ability to deal with reality.

As for Jews being very upset at those who deny the Holocaust, I'm not sure I should even get invovled with answering you, since your purpose is merely anti-Israel propaganda and nothing more. But as a professional hsitorian, I can tell you that there's *nothing* special about that among victimized groups:

1 African Americans would be VERY VERY upset if large numbers of powerful and wealthy people worldwide, including govts in the Middle East, denied the existence of African slavery, and funded institutions and conferences to deny that it ever happened (as the Iranian govt does with the Holocaust).

2. Japanese Americans would be VERY VERY upset if large numbers of powerful and wealthy people worldwide, including govts in the Middle East, denied the existence of the Japanese-American relocation camps of World War II, and denied that nevertheless Japanese-Americans fought valiantly in the American Army during World War II despite the camps, denied it ALL, and funded institutions and conferences to deny that any of this ever happened (as the Iranian govt does with the Holocaust.)

3. Armenians *are* VERY VERY UPSET that the Turkish people and govt still deny the Armenian genocide of 1915-1917.

4. The GREEKS *remain* VERY VERY UPSET that the Turkish people and govt continue to deny that the Smyrna Massacre of 1922 ever happened.

It's not unusual. NO MAGiC JEWS, OMAR.

And that's all I'm going to say on *that* subject, because I have found you to be totally resistant to uncomfortable facts that disturb your worldview.


Joseph Mutik - 11/6/2007

In our days the world is trying to turn the clock back and execute the next Jewish Holocaust. The Muslim world is a big part of this movement (the Muslim population is the most avid reader of "mein kampf" and "the protocols of the elders of Zion").
The Jews are not "disturbed" by this murderous propaganda but with about 2000 years experience they know the smell of the next "pogrom" and try to prevent it.
You and your ilk (Muslims or not), of course, prefer the Jews of WWII going in perfect order and almost without a fight to the ovens.
Times change and some learn from history!


omar ibrahim baker - 11/6/2007

None of that answers the question.

Why do you persist on avoiding answering a straight forward question?
The question being:
1-I often wonder what is it that disturbs the Jews so much about Holocaust denial and Holocaust deniers!??
It has nothing to do what some Palestinians or others think about it.
It is a simple straightforward question that calls for an answer, once again the question is:
1-I often wonder what is it that disturbs the Jews so much about Holocaust denial and Holocaust deniers!??


art eckstein - 11/6/2007

Omar, YOU said that those who deny the Holocaust, or any part of it, are deserving of ridicule and pity.

Both halves of the Palestinian political cauldron deny the Holocaust.

Conclusion, please, based on your own premise?


omar ibrahim baker - 11/6/2007

None of that answers my repeated question:
1-I often wonder what is it that disturbs the Jews so much about Holocaust denial and Holocaust deniers!??
That some, for which ever explicit or implicit motive they harbour, chose to deny an "undeniably" grossly heinous episode and/or historical event can neither efface history nor reduce the hyper criminality of the act....so why bother about them so much

2-Why does the denial of the obvious disturb so much so many people baffles me??

I have a growing suspicion that having justified their own mega crime against the Palestinian people by the Holocaust and perversely used it to legitimize their own ethnic cleansing colonialist project in Palestine the Zionists are afraid that discrediting the Holocaust would delegitimize their own racist project.
The question still stands:
-Why does the denial of the obvious disturb so much so many people baffles me??


A. M. Eckstein - 11/6/2007

Omar writes: "It is so obvious that ,if any thing, people who deny it [ the Holocaust} , or any of it, deserve to be met only with redicule and possibly pity!"

1. I've already dealt with Abu Mazin, Omar.

2. Well, what about the other half of the Palestinian political cauldron, Hamas?

April 21, 2000

Hamas (the Islamic Resistance Movement) has recently published a denial of the Jewish Holocaust on its official website. Although Hamas often uses anti-Jewish phrases, this was the first time the organization has officially denied the Holocaust.

Hamas issued the press release in reaction to the Stockholm conference on the Jewish Holocaust, held in late January 2000, in which several heads of state and officials from many countries participated. The conference emphasized the need to fight the phenomenon of total or partial Holocaust denial by political movements, historians, or anti-Semitic groups and individuals on an international level.

The Hamas press release represents an escalation in the organization's rhetoric and a hardening of its position toward Israel.

An excerpt of this press release follows. It is taken from the official website of Hamas (www.palestine-info.org) and is translated from the original Arabic:

"Following the special international conference in Stockholm concerning the alleged Jewish Holocaust during World War II, a senior leading member of The Islamic Resistance Movement-- Hamas--states the following:

This conference bears a clear Zionist goal, aimed at forging history by hiding the truth about the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis. . . . The invention of these grand illusions of an alleged crime that never occurred. The story itself has no proof. . . The Zionist entity is using psychological and ideological terrorism through the Stockholm conference and the alleged Nazi Holocaust. . ."


A. M. Eckstein - 11/6/2007

Oh--for folks who don't know, Mahmoud Abbas, aka abu Mazin (Mazen), is now the Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority.


A. M. Eckstein - 11/6/2007

Abu Masin's "Ph.D." denies the Holocaust, Omar.

The Memri Institute for monitoring media in the mid-east reports that Mahmud Abbas completed a doctoral thesis in 1982 titled “The Secret Connection between the Nazis and the Leaders of the Zionist Movement”.

In his thesis, Abbas wrote that the estimated number of Jews killed during World War II was “less than one million.” Abbas stated that the Zionist leadership collaborated with the Nazi regime to “facilitate the wide-spread destruction” of Jews. Abbas’ ‘research’ was later printed by a publisher located in Amman, Jordan.

In an introduction to his work published in 1984, Abbas raised doubts regarding the existence of the gas chambers.

The story appeared on HNN on April 28, 2003. It was written by an HNN intern. Omar--he wasn't Jewish. Oh--maybe he was under the *influence* of the Jews, eh?


A. M. Eckstein - 11/5/2007

Everyone should read the detailed negative review of Walt and Mearsheimer in The New Republic, and even the negative review in the leftist The Nation. It is clear that Walt and Mearsheimer, like Omar, believe in "magic Jews" who secretly control the U.S. Congress and Presidency!

Now Walt and Mearsheimer built their entire careers in academic political science on the theory of "Realism", which argues that states' actions in the international sphere are motivated by quite ruthless interactions between states and *not* by internal interest groups within states. . After 25 years of arguing that such an internalist reconstruction of internalist motivation is paranoid, most recently in Mearsheimer's The Tragedy of Great Power Politics (2001), it now turns out that for M and W that there *is* one internal group (rather than the pressure of external circumstances) that does control state policy after all: THE JEWS.

One expects such "magic Jew" ideology from Omar. It is very disappointing to see it in Mearsheimer (whom I have had dinner with), and Walt.

For those interested in some *facts*, I refer them to the previous discussion on HNN on Mearsheimer and Walt, where I showed how many times the U.S. Congress, and various U.S. Presidents, went against expressed Israeli interests--e.g., in selling AWACS to Saudi Arabia, or $30 billion worth of armaments to the Gulf, against strong Israeli (and AIPAC) protests.


omar ibrahim baker - 11/5/2007

I often wonder what is it that diturbs the Jews so much about Holocaust denial and Holocaust deniers!

That some, for which ever explicit or implicit motive they harbour, chose to deny an "undeniably" grossly heinous episode and/or historical event can neither efface history nor reduce the hyper criminality of the act....so why bother about them so much?

Many had, many still do, deny the existence of God ...how did that affect the religosity of the religious or the atheism of the atheist?

IT did NOT and life goes on with the religious and the atheist sitting side by side, often on the same family dinner table.

To the best of my knowledge no laws were ever enacted in any European country penalizing any body who denies the existence of GOD or subjects it to a critical examination or simply casts doubt on some of its aspects ...which is only fair and proper.

That laws were enacted criminalizing those who deny the Holocaust seems to me, in contrast, rediculously disproportionate .

The existence, or non existence, of a God, or gods,though a much less tangible affair ( and hence less provable contention), after all played a much bigger role in human life than the Holocaust did.
Still people are allowed to go on believing or disbelieving in the existence, or non existence, of GOD without exposing themselves to a penal punishment or moral banishment.

To deny that a racially motivated mega crime called the Holocaust against the Jews, and less rememberd others, occurred is akin to denying that man landed on the moon...that there is a continent called Australia that there is a Palestinian people!

It is so obvious that ,if any thing, people who deny it , or any of it,deserve to be met only with redicule and possibly pity!
Why does the denial of the obvious disturbs so much so many people baffles me!


Joseph Mutik - 11/5/2007

The essential is lost in the tit for tat style of discussion prevailing on HNN.


omar ibrahim baker - 11/5/2007

Zionism , Zionists and consequently Israel have been so successful , possibly beyond their dreams, that now they are now at the stage where it is in their interest to downplay that success.

The plantation and establishment of Israel in Palestine , an unparalled modern times colonialist act of native depopulation and population supplantation by aliens, their quasi total domination of US ME policy particularly under President Bush , their regional military/political super power status, their regional nuclear arms monopoly which
enjoys the support of practically all the West ( plus China and the Russian Federation) and their tightenning sranglehold on US media (Murdoch and WSJ)and Academia ; are truly remarkable achievements by any standard.

The scope and potential repercussions , outgrowth?, of these achievements,as a disproportionately
influential factor in determining the future of the Middle East, the USA and the World at large is a genuine cause for concern by many.

The dilemma facing the Zionist movement now is :how to maintain this winning record while publicly downplaying it .

More than any other recent factor the Walt and Meirsheimer book on the Israeli (Zionist) lobby has drawn and focused neutral attention on this issue to the very great consternation of the lobby and all its paid and unpaid friends, associates and agents.
Thence some, most, of their intemperate reactions such as labelling the book as "garbage"!


Louis N Proyect - 11/4/2007

In light of the following, I find Holland's scandal-mongering most disingenuous:

1) Hitler's concept of concentration camps as well as the practicality of genocide owed much, so he claimed, to his studies of English and United States history. He admired the camps for Boer prisoners in South Africa And for the Indians in the Wild West; and often praised to his inner circle the efficiency of America's extermination-by starvation and uneven combat-of the 'Red Savages' who could not be tamed by captivity.

(John Toland, "Adolf Hitler" Vol II, p 802, Doubleday & Co, 1976)


2) "Even the great American democracy could not have been created without the annihilation of the Indians. There are cases in which the overall, final good justifies harsh and cruel acts that are committed in the course of history."

(Benny Morris interview in Haaretz)


Arnold Shcherban - 11/4/2007

Mr. Friedman,

It seems to me you've concluded that I borrowed the term and content "Israel Lobby" from the recently published book of two serious researchers, whom even the
strongly negative reviewer in Foreign Affairs refrain to call anti-semitic or anti-Israeli.
I didn't and I couldn't, since I've not read the book, although did hear about its general idea.
On that reason I won't discuss the
validity of the authors' statements, conclusions and the depth of their analysis.
However, I would take a review
given by WALTER RUSSELL MEAD (who) is Henry A. Kissinger Senior Fellow for U.S. Foreign Policy at the Council on Foreign Relations for its fair value, which is a review written not by independent researcher, but by a representative of American political establishment, heavily involved in Washington's politics and policymaking (quite possibly - a member of that same Lobby the authors of the book analyzed).

There are two extreme views on the Israel Lobby and the extent of its influence on the US policy in MidEast: the first - mostly
carried by anti-American and anti-Israel groups and ideologues - is that the US blindly and subserviently follows the policies
essentially dictated to the American policymakers by that Lobby;
the second - mostly carried by hard-core Jewish nationalists and Zionists (in the bad meaning of those terms) - that the influence of Israel Lobby either close to zero or
is no greater than the influence of the, say, Brazil or Russian Lobby.

I adhere to none of the two.
My view, strongly supported by official data, that both quantitatively and qualitatively Israel Lobby is currently the most influential of all, at the least, relative to the size and international weight of Israel in the world. (Actually, official data tells that it is the second one after the UK's only!).

The most influential members of President Bush Think Tank, the Bush appointees on the high political positions, and Bush close policy advisers are well-known for their hard-core pro-Israel views and actions, which they don't even find necessary to hide. If they are not to be considered as Israel Lobbyists, I don't know who is.

You write that many Americans identify themselves (or their ideological and political aspirations
or views) with a state of Israel, and that's the main reason, in your opinion, why the US governments continuously give unwavering support
to Israel.
Here you make, at the least, one assumption: The US governments always act according the wishes and views of American majority. You know this is a false one.
If you agree with the falsity of that assumption, then the abovementioned course of every US government (Conservative or Democrat) towards Israel becomes hard to explain, without making consessions to my point of view.
On the other token, since there are many (millions) Americans that think differently than that majority, how come that their respective views have never been represented in the
US policy towards Israel?
Thus, such a consistently skewed policy makes it very difficult to explain on your terms and very easy
on mine.

Still it is the US governments and political elite who's fully responsible for its own policies around the world, and when they are wrong or worse, those folks have to held accountable for them, not the state of Israel, or Iran, or French.

But you're entitled to your own opinion, and therefore, I would like to discontinue our two-way debate, yielding my right to object to the comments of other folks on the same topic.


Arnold Shcherban - 11/3/2007

I apologize for the wrong submission.


Arnold Shcherban - 11/3/2007

Now sirree, you're trying to tarnish
the credibility of my comments with
the assumption that is founded exclusively on your, as usually, false representation of my views.

I have been debating on HNN boards for a long time, and the ones that know the general pathos of my comments (such as Mr Friedman, e.g.) are aware that never ever I doubted (not mentioning opposed) either the legality of the existence of the state of Israel on the territory mapped for it by the UN majority at the end of 1940s, or Israeli rights
to defend their country against real threats to its national security within the established and approved by the international majority rules of engagement.
(But note the terms: real, defend, and within those rules.)
This fact alone hammers your main accusation well into the ground.

As far as for the right of any country to lobby for its interests at Capitol Hill I have strong arguments against the ethical and legal aspects of that right in general. But even taken those aside, tell me, please how come that the lobby of such small country as Israel is the second most powerful and numerous in Washington right behind the UK's, the undeniable fact officially recognized and published.

And lastly: I never ever blamed Israel for the Iraq war, which was
as I always emphasized was just a part of the Grand Strategic Design
of the US corporate imperialists played out for decades in 20th century already. Israel, as far as I understand the whole picture would be and still is more interested in the comparable US attack against Iran or/and Syria, with the former coming in the nearest three to six months, I predict.
By the way, if you followed my comments for the last four-five years, you (provided a speck of fairness and objectivity is left in you) would notice that practically all my "wrong" predictions on the results and consequences of the US and Israel foreign policies have become things of today's reality, while practically all respective "right" (no pun intended) predictions of my opponents on HNN boards, as well as the predictions of the mainstream experts and politicans failed miserably.
No bad for "wrong" views, ideas, and analysis, don't you think?


Arnold Shcherban - 11/3/2007

Now sirree, you're trying to tarnish
the credibility of my comments with
the assumption that is founded exclusively on your, as usually, false representation of my views.

I have been debating on HNN boards for a long time, and the ones that know the general pathos of my comments (such as Mr Friedman, e.g.) are aware that never ever I doubted (not mentioning opposed) either the legality of the existence of the state of Israel on the territory mapped for it by the UN majority at the end of 1940s, or Israeli rights
to defend their country against real threats to its national security within the established and approved by the international majority rules of engagement.
(But note the terms: real, defend, and within those rules.)
This fact alone hammers your main accusation well into the ground.

As far as for the right of any country to lobby for its interests at Capitol Hill I have strong arguments against the ethical and legal aspects of that right in general. But even taken those aside, tell me, please how come that the lobby of such small country as Israel is the second most powerful and numerous in Washington right behind the UK's, the undeniable fact officially recognized and published.

And lastly: I never ever blamed Israel for the Iraq war, which was
as I always emphasized was just a part of the Grand Strategic Design
of the US corporate imperialists played out for decades in 20th century already. Israel, as far as I understand the whole picture would be and still is more interested in the comparable US attack against Iran or/and Syria, with the former coming in the nearest three to six months, I predict.
By the way, if you followed my comments for the last four-five years, you (provided a speck of fairness and objectivity is left in you) would notice that practically all my "wrong" predictions on the results and consequences of the US and Israel foreign policies have become things of today's reality, while practically all respective "right" (no pun intended) predictions of my opponents on HNN boards, as well as the predictions of the mainstream experts and politicans failed miserably.
No bad for "wrong" views, ideas, and analysis, don't you think?


N. Friedman - 11/3/2007

Arnold,

I shall not have time this week much to debate your point. But, I do note that you vastly exaggerate the impact of those who lobby on behalf of Israel, confusing lobbying with genuine, longstanding support that has its roots right back to the very origins of the US.

Which is to say, most of Israel's support comes from the fact that most Americans identify with Israel - seeing it connected with America's own history: as a pioneer state, as a state for those viewed as the world's detritus, as the New Israel, etc., etc.

You might consider that much of what is said about the role of Israel's friends is said by the convinced to the convinced and does not reflect serious analysis. A more serious analysis regarding, for example, the recent garbage book about the "Israel lobby" appeared recently in Foreign Affairs. And, frankly, the review, which shows that virtually everything of substance said in that book is not just wrong but, frankly, based on poor analysis and serious misunderstanding of evidence, understates the problem with the theory because the author confuses Antisemitism with a mere hatred rather than a political position, as it has nearly always been when it resulted in serious harm to Jews.


Adam Holland - 11/3/2007

To Arnold Scherban:

Whatever slur you sling, be it "illiterate", "outlandish", "creature" or "lier" (sic), you cannot conceal the true target of your vitriol. You oppose the idea of a Jewish state. That idea, the Jewish state, is the essence of Zionism, and that is also the essence what you demonize.

Undeniably, Israel lobbies for what it considers its interest, as does Saudi Arabia, China, Dubai and the other Gulf States, and virtually every other nation in the world with the capacity to do so. You see not only Jewish nationalism, but also Jewish political power, as exceptional and threatening. What is it that makes it so in your eyes?

You blame Israel for the Iraq war, but in the process, you absolve the petroleum producing states and the petroleum industry, both of which have profited both financially in the short term and strategically in the long term from the war. Do you really believe that the Bush administration is more interested in Israel than they are in oil? If you do, then I have an oil well I'd like to sell you in Haifa.


Arnold Shcherban - 11/3/2007

Any one who blames Jews, in general, for anything Israel or the US do is
most likely an anti-semitic bigot.
However, anyone who refuses to recognize the great influence of pro-Israeli (not Jewish) lobby on the the US Mid-Eastern policy, especially nowadays, is either an illiterate outlandish creature or a deliberate lier.


Frank Ly - 11/3/2007

Thank you for raising this -- I saw this phenom. in 2003 in NYC in the antiwar protests (to my extreme dismay). Anti-Jewish messages were blended into the prepared protest materials against "Bush" and against invading Iraq -- to great effect on the impressionistic college kids from NYU, Columbia etc. Classic PR dirty trick and it worked: in an instant, "Zionist" has become an acceptable slur, with Israel somehow grouped together with Bush (I know no Israeli -- or American Jew -- who actually feels this way!)

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