What Is the Difference Between Sunni and Shiite Muslims--and Why Does It Matter?

tags: Islam, Muslims, Shiites, Sunnis




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The Islam religion was founded by Mohammed in the seventh century. In 622 he founded the first Islamic state, a theocracy in Medina, a city in western Saudi Arabia located north of Mecca. There are two branches of the religion he founded.

The Sunni branch believes that the first four caliphs--Mohammed's successors--rightfully took his place as the leaders of Muslims. They recognize the heirs of the four caliphs as legitimate religious leaders. These heirs ruled continuously in the Arab world until the break-up of the Ottoman Empire following the end of the First World War.

Shiites, in contrast, believe that only the heirs of the fourth caliph, Ali, are the legitimate successors of Mohammed. In 931 the Twelfth Imam disappeared. This was a seminal event in the history of Shiite Muslims. According to R. Scott Appleby, a professor of history at the University of Notre Dame,"Shiite Muslims, who are concentrated in Iran, Iraq, and Lebanon, [believe they] had suffered the loss of divinely guided political leadership" at the time of the Imam's disappearance. Not"until the ascendancy of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in 1978" did they believe that they had once again begun to live under the authority of a legitimate religious figure.

Another difference between Sunnis and Shiites has to do with the Mahdi, “the rightly-guided one” whose role is to bring a just global caliphate into being. As historian Timothy Furnish has written,"The major difference is that for Shi`is he has already been here, and will return from hiding; for Sunnis he has yet to emerge into history: a comeback v. a coming out, if you will."

In a special 9-11 edition of the Journal of American History, Appleby explained that the Shiite outlook is far different from the Sunni's, a difference that is highly significant:

... for Sunni Muslims, approximately 90 percent of the Muslim world, the loss of the caliphate after World War I was devastating in light of the hitherto continuous historic presence of the caliph, the guardian of Islamic law and the Islamic state. Sunni fundamentalist leaders thereafter emerged in nations such as Egypt and India, where contact with Western political structures provided them with a model awkwardly to imitate ... as they struggled after 1924 to provide a viable alternative to the caliphate.

In 1928, four years after the abolishment of the caliphate, the Egyptian schoolteacher Hasan al-Banna founded the first Islamic fundamentalist movement in the Sunni world, the Muslim Brotherhood (al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun). Al-Banna was appalled by"the wave of atheism and lewdness [that] engulfed Egypt" following World War I. The victorious Europeans had"imported their half-naked women into these regions, together with their liquors, their theatres, their dance halls, their amusements, their stories, their newspapers, their novels, their whims, their silly games, and their vices." Suddenly the very heart of the Islamic world was penetrated by European"schools and scientific and cultural institutes" that" cast doubt and heresy into the souls of its sons and taught them how to demean themselves, disparage their religion and their fatherland, divest themselves of their traditions and beliefs, and to regard as sacred anything Western."14 Most distressing to al-Banna and his followers was what they saw as the rapid moral decline of the religious establishment, including the leading sheikhs, or religious scholars, at Al-Azhar, the grand mosque and center of Islamic learning in Cairo. The clerical leaders had become compromised and corrupted by their alliance with the indigenous ruling elites who had succeeded the European colonial masters.

Osama bin Laden is a Sunni Muslim. To him the end of the reign of the caliphs in the 1920s was catastrophic, as he made clear in a videotape made after 9-11. On the tape, broadcast by Al-Jazeera on October 7, 2001, he proclaimed:"What America is tasting now is only a copy of what we have tasted. ... Our Islamic nation has been tasting the same for more [than] eighty years, of humiliation and disgrace, its sons killed and their blood spilled, its sanctities desecrated."

Juan Cole, a well-known historian of the Middle East, has pointed out on his blog, Informed Comment, that the split between Sunni and Shiites in Iraq is of relatively recent origin:

I see a lot of pundits and politicians saying that Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq have been fighting for a millennium. We need better history than that. The Shiite tribes of the south probably only converted to Shiism in the past 200 year s. And, Sunni-Shiite riots per se were rare in 20th century Iraq. Sunnis and Shiites cooperated in the 1920 rebellion against the British. If you read the newspapers in the 1950s and 1960s, you don't see anything about Sunni-Shiite riots. There were peasant/landlord struggles or communists versus Baathists. The kind of sectarian fighting we're seeing now in Iraq is new in its scale and ferocity, and it was the Americans who unleashed it.

In December 2006 the New York Times reported that it is not just ordinary Americans who find it difficult to remember the difference between Sunnis and Shiites:

SURPRISE quiz: Is Al Qaeda Sunni or Shiite? Which sect dominates Hezbollah?

Silvestre Reyes, the Democratic nominee to head the House Intelligence Committee, failed to answer both questions correctly last week when put to the test by Congressional Quarterly. He mislabeled Al Qaeda as predominantly Shiite, and on Hezbollah, which is mostly Shiite, he drew a blank.

“Speaking only for myself,” he told reporters, “it’s hard to keep things in perspective and in the categories.”

Not that he’s alone. Other members of Congress from both parties have also flunked on-the-spot inquiries. Indeed, some of the smartest Western statesmen of the last century have found themselves flummoxed by Islam. Winston Churchill — in 1921, while busy drawing razor-straight borders across a mercurial Middle East — asked an aide for a three-line note explaining the “religious character” of the Hashemite leader he planned to install in Baghdad.

“Is he a Sunni with Shaih sympathies or a Shaih with Sunni sympathies?” Mr. Churchill wrote, using an antiquated spelling. (“I always get mixed up between these two,” he added.)

And maybe religious memorization should not be required for policymaking. Gen. William Odom, who directed the National Security Agency under President Ronald Reagan, said that Mr. Reyes mainly needs to know “how the intelligence community works.”

Yet, improving American intelligence, according to General Odom and others with close ties to the Middle East and the American intelligence community, requires more than just a organization chart.

A cheat sheet is in order.

The Review asked nearly a dozen experts, from William R. Polk, author of “Understanding Iraq,” to Paul R. Pillar, the C.I.A. official who coordinated intelligence on the Middle East until he retired last year, to explain the region. Here, a quick distillation.

What caused the original divide?

The groups first diverged after the Prophet Muhammad died in 632, and his followers could not agree on whether to choose bloodline successors or leaders most likely to follow the tenets of the faith.

The group now known as Sunnis chose Abu Bakr, the prophet’s adviser, to become the first successor, or caliph, to lead the Muslim state. Shiites favored Ali, Muhammad’s cousin and son-in-law. Ali and his successors are called imams, who not only lead the Shiites but are considered to be descendants of Muhammad. After the 11th imam died in 874, and his young son was said to have disappeared from the funeral, Shiites in particular came to see the child as a Messiah who had been hidden from the public by God.

The largest sect of Shiites, known as “twelvers,” have been preparing for his return ever since.

How did the violence start?

In 656, Ali’s supporters killed the third caliph. Soon after, the Sunnis killed Ali’s son Husain.

Fighting continued but Sunnis emerged victorious over the Shiites and came to revere the caliphate for its strength and piety.

Shiites focused on developing their religious beliefs, through their imams.


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syreda hunny ibrahim - 3/24/2011

you don't think Muhammad is the saviour of his people? how about those who believe in god but no religion.. just believe in human kindness... you think they will go to hell? i think our prophets acts base on the time they were in... we often forget that, it happened thousands of years ago. things were different, people were different, law, culture and civilisation was different... jesus was a saviour of his people during his time, and muhammad was a saviour of his people during his time. it's easy for us now to judge and say as we were not there to experience it. how about buddha? you think he is not a saviour of his people? i think what man stray from the real understanding and the teaching of their saviour. greed, money and power has made them corrupted... and corrupt people minds. oppression makes people act the way they act now... desperation to attract attention, and using religion to justify their action, who to blame? you can't blame religion and their prophet who had led their people to victory long time ago... you have to blame the leaders who manipulate the poor and those who is desperate for a change, to make them who they are now. they gave them wrong information, wrong idea about what life is all about... they use religion as a medium to sabotage other people believes and to make people hate each other. and end up fighting with each other. people who has nothing to loose will believe in anything for a promise of a better future.
forgive my english, it is not my first language.


chip bruce shreve - 2/18/2011

Jesus, a prophet, a great healer. No. Jesus who was known to walk this earth by almost all the religions of the world at that time is proof of God and man on earth. God Jesus the healer and riser from death walked as a man on earth. My friends of open minds I asked and state; Jesus Christ was either The son of God as he claimed or a raving mad man, you must choose for to say that he was a great healer/prophet/teacher would not make sense. He claimed to be nothing less or nothing more than Being God in human form


matt bacon - 2/5/2011

and i forgot to say. they are all in violation of the charters of their particular religions. Muslim terrorists are no more following the teachings of Mohamed then are Christian terrorists following the teachings of Jesus.


matt bacon - 2/5/2011

Christians are so funny because they are always preaching to you from their soap boxes, but without actually knowing what they are talking about. All three major religions. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are ALL sanctioned and blessed by God IN THE BIBLE ITSELF. You forget that God promised Abraham that his son Ishmael would be the father of a great nation and that that nation would have God's protection, not as much protection, and not as much knowledge as the children of Isaac, but it would still be a great nation unto him. Muslims just dont have as MUCH of the truth, but there is still truth in their religion. Just as there is truth in Judaism. Someday they will all come to recognize Christ as their savior. Remember, it says. Every knee shall bow and ever tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. Truthfully we are all brethren and we are all God's/Allah's/Whatever-else-you-want-to-call-him's children, and we forget that all too often. But I say unto you, "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you" "For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?"


matt bacon - 2/5/2011

To be fair, how many christian terrorists have you ever heard of? it is about as rare as being bitten by a shark in Colorado. Muslim terrorists, however, happen to be MUCH more common. Does this make Islam itself a worse religion? I dont think so. Thats just the way things happen to be right now. 1000 years ago Christians would have been the ones perpetrating more crimes against humanity. But you cant justify MODERN muslims actions by comparing them to MODERN christians. Because modern christians ARE more peaceable. Terrorism, no matter if its in the name of Allah, God, Ireland or Global Warming is still terrorism and they should all be put next to each other on the same firing squad.


matt bacon - 2/5/2011

Go back and burn some more crosses in your white bed sheet you ignorant prick. Yes, Muslim terrorists should be put to death, and we should absolutely under no circumstances accept shariah law here in America, not even for people who want to follow it. And we should greatly discourage the insulting and disgusting building of a Mosque at ground zero. But we need to remember, Muslims are people too. And they deserve the basic rights of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness as much as the next person. If we were to expulse all of them from our nation we would be going against everything that this nation was founded for. We would be violating every principle. We would be great hypocrites. I know it is easy to hate, but its not American.


matt bacon - 2/5/2011

Claiming one religion is better than another is just rediculous. I mean, you would have to prove that your particular religion leads people to be better people with more effectiveness than any other religion, which you cant prove. I would say the same to the christian lady who replied to you. Both of you have your opinion, and if you follow that religion with all your heart, God or Allah or whatever you want to call him will absolutely bless you. If having accurate knowledge was a determining factor in getting in to heaven God would make sure that EVERYONE had a perfect knowledge of the truth, which i think that NO religion on earth can claim to. Thats not what is important, sincerety and becoming a better, more charitable and selfless person is what is important. If you do that through Islam, or through Christianity you are still doing the righ thing. I agree with you, people shouldnt judge Islam by the few psychotic terrorists. and we DEFINITLY shouldnt be invading muslim countries considering that that is what caused the situation in the first place. But you need to be careful. You see, thinking that our way (the american way) is always better no matter what and that every sane person would obviously want a democracy is what made us invade Iraq in the first place. You see, good intentions, tainted by a belief in absolute infallibility lead us to do something very evil. And it is that same belief that you have about your religion, you believe it is the best and infallible. And it is that same belief that caused Osama bin Ladin to massacre thousands of people, something I am sure that Allah will cause him to eternally suffer for, because Allah most obviously does not appreciate ANYONE from ANY SIDE massacring his children and any Imam who teaches differently is not a muslim, but a fascist. How do you know that those people would not have converted to Islam had Osama just tried to convert them instead of killing them? All Im saying is be careful and slow to judge others for their beliefs and be slow to think that you have all the truth. I shouldnt even have to reply to the Christian person who replied to you. He/she should be ashamed of himself/herself. Christ himself said Judge not. That person is in direct violation of the tenents of their religion by judging you, and i havent read the Quaran, but i bet it says about the same thing.


cj Jenkins - 6/24/2009

Have you tried Mendeley? I use it all the time, it organises all your pdfs, is a bibliography manager, sorts out all the meta-data and also hosts a researcher network where you can collaborate with other researchers.

http://www.mendeley.com


sara al mousawi - 6/6/2009

In December 2006 the New York Times reported that it is not just ordinary Americans who find it difficult to remember the difference between Sunnis and Shiites:

SURPRISE quiz: Is Al Qaeda Sunni or Shiite? Which sect dominates Hezbollah??

well, i'm a shiite person , proud of that of course,
i love hezbollah so much ,hezbollah is shiites and will alwyas be and i believe that al qaeda is not muslim ( which means it's not shiite or sunni ) so, it's terrorist because muslims will never even do the horrible things that al qaeda have done whether they were muslims shiite or muslims sunni


Rida B. Khan - 5/29/2009

Yeah..u Guys probably don't know the difference between Shiite and Sunnis..And u certainly don't know who killed the Third caliph of Islam...cuz surely Shiaan-e-Ali(Shiites of Ali) didn't kill him. You people should expand your research and i would recommend that you see the Iranian movie 'Imam-e-Ali'. And u'll surely find who the really killed Caliph Usman. And for your information the 'Sunni' sect flourished after 700 AD, before that the term 'Sunni' wasn't used extensively. And the people to whom u r referring to as 'Sunnis' and the killer of Imam Hussain(a.s.) were actually the Ansars of Banu Saqeefa and the Kharjites. Muslims divided into many sects after the Prophet(p.b.u.h.)'s death as many people wanted to acquire the seat of Muslim Caliphate in Madina. This led to a lot of chaos and instead of performing the rituals of Prophet's rituals, many prominent companions( ashaab) went to Saqeefa to fight for the throne. The true successor of the Prophet(pbuh) was Hazrat Ali ibn Abi Talib(a.s.), whom Prophet(pbuh) had appointed Calipha himself after his last hajj in 10 A.H. at Ghadeer-e-Khum. But the Muslims after the Prophet's death denied Ali's succession. Many Sunni books confirm the event of Ghadeer-e-Khum and Ali's succession, including Ahmad bin Hanbal's Musnad.


Matthew Dickinson - 8/14/2008

Muslims might get respect if they stopped murdering everybody and strapping bombs on their children. Also they should stop marrying children. And Christians should stop believing that Jesus is God; that is idolatry. You're not supposed to believe that God is physical. Anything that's physical is a part of creation. Making fun of Muhammad isn't wrong either, especially since he was a child molestor and warmonger.


hesham t kahil - 7/21/2008

one last thing....i forgot to post.. the bible has been changed.... wasn't there a part about Jesus's childhood that was omitted not so long ago?
and by the way the original authors and manuscripts of the gospel are lost.. and also there was a time when over 500 bibles where in rotation.
Just check a 500 year old bible and check the one you have now and check for differences.
go to answering-Christianity.com
it has good info about the topic

and even better,watch the documentary "Banned from the Bible" it is on Youtube


hesham t kahil - 7/21/2008

There are some errors in the article.
The prophet did not found the 2 branches.. they appeared after the 4rth caliphate.
Also, i read a post here of the converted Christian that said that Islam orders the killing of non Muslims.

I can tell you a few things in Brief.
1) The Islamic Law allows NON MUSLIMS TO LIVE in Islamic states as long as they Pay Jizya(a tax thats almost equivalent to Zakah that Muslims pay); non muslims lived in Islamic states through out history AND DURING THE LIFE OF THE PROPHET so that shows how wrong you are. I am not going into details of how Muslim males are allowed to marry Christians and Jews.

2) The Quran is not the only Source of Islamic teachings... the Sunna(life of the prophet) is too.. the prophet's neighbor was Jewish so again you were wrong.

3) I can get you 5 Suras atleast IN THE QURAN on how to deal with non muslims... Yes it asks you to Fight WHO FIGHTS YOU in other words in self defense... it asks you to treat people with piety and mercy and helpfulness as long as there is no conflict between the two.

4) Read the Last 2 Aya's in Surat AL- OMRAN.... You could be non muslim and still go to heaven... also, there is a Hadith that said that there was AN ATHEIST WOMAN who went to heaven because she Fed a hungry Dog and another of a MUSLIM WOMAN that went to hell because she tortured a cat sooo....

5) The Quran DID NOT CHANGE NOT EVEN ONE WORD because of the Grammar of the Arabic language.. The Grammar in the Arabic language is very very complicated even scholars do not fully grasp it. There is some kind of balance that needs to be maintained if one is writing in the correct grammar (tashkeel).. i'll give you an example in chemistry.. if you have a chemical equation it must be balanced correct? we all had to go through the balancing of chemical equations in high school tests... you were taught how to pin point every mistake in that equation... the arabic language has something similar.. The ENTIRE QURAN is balanced in that way... if i add/remove/replace one word the balance falls within the Sura.
By the way the prophet wasnt able to read or write yet he allegedly "wrote" the entire Quran somehow with not one grammatical error WOW.

i can prove for you how Islam is anti terrorism and anti the killing of non muslims using suras from the Quran and hadith if i can.
my e-mail is
mastermind_kahil@hotmail.com

message me if you need clarifcations or if you have any questions.. i'll try to help


Sanju Simon - 1/19/2008

Do you mind if you could give me your e-mail address? Dont worrry,its not for spam.I hav a few questions thats it and i will not bother you ever again...My address---> getsanju2004@yahoo.co.in
www.love4uall.bebo.com


Sanju Simon - 1/19/2008

I jumped here when i searched the difference between Shiite and Sunni Muslim in Google as today its a ritual day for Shiites.Im a Christian and found this very interesting.What i believe is that both the Holy Quran and the Holy Bible,teaches us the same things although differences may exists here and there.And if you are only set to find dissimilarities,then you will only find dissimilarities.Why do people take only the negative of something and project it.I have a Muslim friend,her name is Lukaa Murad.She is from Iraq.Being with her most of my college time,I was surprised how beautifull Islam is,and i wondered how does Islam produce such a beautifull and loving personality.She never stops telling me that Im a brother to her.Before i met her i had fogged impression on Islam and Muslims.I had stayed in an Islamic country for about 8 years.Im now 20 years old.And i come from the country that has the 3rd largest Muslim population in the world(around 150 million).And i never ever had thought like this staying in the midst of these people.All i can say is to stop fighting,and killing in the name of religion .We are humans,not animals.We know whats wrong and right.Don`t fool your conscience.All the fight thats goin on,is either for power,material goods or for money.All of these has no role in either Heaven or Hell(if you believe in them).Love and acceptance is the only answer, which i think is growing short in this world.Personally i think Christianity,Islam and Jewdism revolves around the same idea.
Peace to all of you...
God is Love....Jesus is the Light of the world..
Allahu Akbar...


Shajee Hassnain Syed - 12/25/2007

You talk highly of the Caliphs well i have read in a sunni book that imam ali did live through the times of omar abu bakr and osman but these caliphs valued imam alis word and made sure that no important decision was made without imam alis consent. Another thing that when abubakr was in the process of becoming a caliph imam ali was giving the prophet a burial. Hazrat fatima was not happy with decision of making abubakr the caliph because the prophet specifically said on hajj a tul wida that who ever follows me shall follow Ali. Hazrat fatima and the hashmite family were gathered in the house of the prophet to console fatima who was grieving her father and was angry that his disciples did not respect his wish and made their own caliph. After a while Omar came along and asked every body in the house to get out and accept the new caliph and when no one did he threatened to burn down the house of hazrat fatima. What did the prophet say that whoever angers my daughter anger me and who ever insults insults me. so tell me how would the threat to burn down Fatimas house make her feel? now before you deny I got the information from a sunni book and if i have time i will that ali was suppose to be the next caliph . You see Ali or the family of the prophet (syeds) do not follow a spirtual leader who doesnt even know half as much as Ali or Ahle Bait which is why imam husein scraficed himself and his family instead of following a ruthless brute. You see there is so much to say but not enough room, most of the thing that sunnis believe in about the caliphs contradicts with what some of their books say making it easier for the shites to prove their point. Shite books only use sunni books to prove their point and every thing i have said is backed by a sunni book.


Judith A. McDonald - 7/7/2007

Even born-again Christians disagree, even get angry and say things they shouldn't, but rarely do they pull out guns or knives and start killing each other. The number of deaths during two "Christian" atrocities, the Inquisition and Crusades, don't negate all the good that has been done in the name of Jesus Christ. Lutherans and Nazarenes may fiercely disagree on transubstantiaion, but they do agree on the merits of the shed blood and broken body of Jesus. Christians of different denominations, languages and cultures worship together in that name. Worldwide Christian assemblies prove that point. Musliims, on the other hand, find a reason to fight, each other or with anybody else who happens to be in their way. They fight, to the death if possible, over every perceived act or word of disrespect. That same attitude is found in America's worst neighborhoods, but the source of bad behavior is the same worldwide: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9) The only hope we have for peace in our homes and neighborhoods is repentance and faith in Jesus. He alone is able to redeem us from the inside out. In my own heart, his love now replaces the hatred I once harbored for my stepson. Jesus replaces hopelessness with purpose and a vision to help, not exploit, the poor. That's why missionaries leave their safe, comfortable homes to share the gospel in hot, disease-infested world areas. It's not because some warlord has ordered them to, it's because the love of Christ compels them to share the love and joy they've found. Evil has worn many religious masks, but when the outward expression of "faith" is rape, murder, mutilation and psychological scarring, it is EVIL. It doesn't matter whether it's a Catholic priest molesting an altar boy, an egomaniac leading his followers in a suicide pact, or a revered imam encouraging impressionable young men to blow themselves up in the middle of a crowded market ... it's all evil. "Brother Andrew" asked a poignant question: "What kind of people does your book produce?" When individuals, Muslim or Christian, know and follow closely the tenants of their own "book," what kind of people do they become? Which is better...murder or mercy? I vote for Jesus.


Flo B - 5/8/2007

"Osama bina Laden is a Sunni Muslim. To him the end of the reign of the caliphs in the 1920s was catastrophic, as he made clear in a videotape made after 9-11."

the loss of the caliphate after World War I wasn't an American deal, why don't they take this out on Turkey?
Don't they really fear globalisation?


juls sky - 4/18/2007

If I understand what is printed there, so the whole war/terror/hate America problems stems from folks not being able to decide who to follow after the guy who started this religion died??? Cousin blood line or government figure..certainly there is more to the battle between Shiite and Sunni that just killed 178 in Baghdad than who to follow???


Dave Phelps - 3/30/2007

I have read the Holy Bible; I have not read the Holy Quran. A quote by samia fatima naqvi on February 13, 2005 at 1:31 AM. “i also know a bit about christianity and i know there are a lot of similarities in these religions because after all BIBLE and HOLY QURAN were both sent by the same God…” Food for thought Samia, reference to the Bible as just the Bible? but a reference to the Quran as the Holy Quran! is a slap in the face, but I forgive you and turn the other cheek. That’s water under the bridge so let’s drop it. I read the responses right up to the Holy Bible has changed. The true and loving GOD created everything, including human rights, civil rights and personal rights. My proof, GOD gave Adam and Eve the right to choose to eat or not eat of the tree of knowledge and evil. So GOD (not man) gave me the right to practice or not practice any religion I choose. Since I’m a non practicing Pentecostal let me step up to the plate, any zealot Holy Bible or Holy Quran thumper that kills in the name of GOD should be executed. As for that moron Fred Phelps in Kansas maybe a nice IRS investigation is due. Any one who uses their religion as a weapon or insists that you convert or be considered to be less than human and should die is not a religion of GOD, it’s a cult. For the record I consider Fred Phelps’ church to be a cult. A true warrior of GOD fights GOD’s battles on their knees in prayer, not in the streets. Matthew 17:20 And He said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.


Mohamed A. Maher - 1/27/2007

hi brian,
i didn't say anything about muslims making problems !!!
the people that makes problems are extremists , that are not related to the islam.
and there are sunni's extremists and sheit's extremists as well...like any religion in the world , that could have extremists.
and how do u think that the muslims are the ones who are responsible of the problems of the world... !! i think that the americans and the isralis are the ones who are responsible of the world's problems...but this is not our issue in here.
and even if there is any muslim would make a problem in the world , so islam condemns him,whatever he was a sunni or sheit..


brian r timely - 1/25/2007

So you are saying the the 90% Sunni's are the ones causing all the problems in the world?!


brian r timely - 1/25/2007

Therefore, musn't the free world either KILL or NEGOTIATE with the IMAMS before anything positive can happen?!


Peace Parker - 1/22/2007

I got to this site the same way someone else in the chain did, by looking up the difference between Shiites and Sunnis. Interesting debate, but I think I'm going to go to those old fashioned things called books for some more complete and hopefully relatively unbiased (if that's possible) data. In case you are curious, I'm a secular humanist, my views about God are kept carefully my own, but I want to study the religious history in addition to the geopolitical events of the last 200 years, to try to understand the growing violence in the world better. I suspect that intelligent debate and diplomacy is gong to be the only solution to the problem and to those of you engaged in the more emotional (and sometimes downright vitriolic) aspects of the debate, I hope you will do the same.


Mohamed A. Maher - 1/19/2007

Hi shajee, well....i'm a sunni from egypt. first of all , sunnis are not the followers of caliphs as u said, but the followers of the prophet ( as sunni means the one who walks on the track of the prophet mohamed), and we have never ever tried to kill the descendents of the prophet, and by the way there are many sunnis are descendents of prophet mohamed also, but what really happend was a political war , between mawia and ali , why !!? if you read the history , you will find that ossman (the caliph) was killed , and the people has chosen ali as his succesor, but mawia said i won't accept ali as a caliph except if he found and judged the killers of ossman, but ali didn't do so , so a war occured between ali and mawia... until this point there was no difference at all, between sunnis and shiets, it was only a political problem...but what has happend , is that after the death of ali and his son hussin (which are both loved by the sunnis)
the sheits (the followers) of ali, started to consider ali as a holy person , and started to change many things in the religion , and saying that only the followers of ali are the right people and all the other muslims are wrong and will go to hell !!! , do you know that ali was there when abo bakr was a cliph and when omar was a caliph and when ossman was a caliph , and there was no problem at all between them , and they lived safely, and he has never said that you took my right ever, and the prophet mohamed didn't say that ali would be his succesor ever (as sheits say), and if he did so , the muslims at that time wouldn't have left any other person to be the caliph other than ali....
don't you know that our religion said that every decision between people should be taken by consultancy " wa amrohom shoora baynahom" , so if all the people at that time chose abo bakr as a caliph , so that would be the best decision because all the people took it. and i wonder , if you say that the descendents of the prophet should be considered as holy people , or only a 12 of them as sheits say , why the prophet mohamed didn't ever say so, and why it has not been ever said in the quran , and didn't mention even a small word about that or even about ali. and if the prophet said so , so at least you would find all the people who follow the prohet's track would try to make that happen, but all the muslims allover the world, say that this didn't happen.
i wonder , why in your festivals you take the swords and try to hurt your heads with it until blood gets down.....DID THE PROPHET MOHAMED EVER DID SO, NO HE NEVER DID SO EVEERRR , IT'S NOT IN THE ISLAM AT ALL....and i know that you do that because you are sad for the murder of hussien.....
i want to say that i thought that the sheits are considered muslims , but when i read more and more about what they do and what they believe in , i'm sure now that they have gone away from the islamic track and what the prophet mohamed said ........ the sunnis only believe in the quran and the prophet mohamed , and try to do the things written in the quran , and what prophet mohamed said, but the sheits believe in the quran and the prophet mohamed and ali and hussien and many others..which are not prophets .... and they do many things that contradicts the islam, by the way , 90% of the world muslims are sunnis, while only 10% are sheits....
if you can read arabic, take this link and read what's in it , it is written in arabic ( www.alburhan.com )
finally , i want you to read in history very good, and try to read about sunnis, and what prophet mohamed really said...i really want to talk about many and many thing that the sheits do , which is not in the islam at all..but let it be in the next time...


shajee H Syed - 1/19/2007

ya i liked the article but you say fighting continued between shite and sunnis, well i dont know about that but sunnis (the followers of the caliphs) did try to kill all the desendents of the prophet so the desendent fleed to neighbouring countries (since i am desendent of the prophet my parents are from pakistan) and you say that "In 656, Ali’s supporters killed the third caliph. Soon after, the Sunnis killed Ali’s son Husain."well i dont know about Alis supporters killing the third caliph may be they did but Ali was also murdered and its believed that his killer was a follower of the caliphs who came after Ali the caliphs name was Mawia. and it was Mawias son Yazid who tricked Hussain son of Ali to come to Karbala (city in Iraq) to preach the religion but they ambushed them and killed Hussain and his sons (youngest was 6 months)his other family members who he was with all in all 70 to a 100 people . an army of , i think the number is 10000 was sent to do this job. Yazid (son of Mawia) wanted Hussain (son of Ali) to accept him as a leader and a caliph, Hussain did not do so because he thought if he did muslims will think that Yazid is righteous and pure ( Yazid was a drunk, Yazid thought it was Okay to marry your aunts and many other things that are not appropriate and were forbidden in Islam ) well most sunnis today just like shiites hate Yazid, its the Wahabis who dont care about killing of Hussain .Let me tell you that the prophet did actually announce his successor and it was Ali and there were witnesses who remained silent when the first caliph was chosen and if the AlI did become the first Caliph and caliphate was given to the line of the prophet there wont be people like Osama Bin Laden today but instead the caliphate was given to lesser men who believed in ruling with and iron fist and converted many people to Islam at the tip of the sword. the caliphs actually consulted ALI for just about anything since Ali knew evrything about Islam And the Quran (holy book).
finally Islam calls Christians , Jews, and Muslims Ahle-Kitab meaning people of the book,bible, torah and Quran since all muslims believe in torah , bible and ofcourse the Quran well my point is christians and jews are NOT infedels (kafr)since extremists refer to them as infedals well they are wrong.


Alysyn Chayns - 1/18/2007

Mr Furnish,
I was so confused about the subtle intracacies of the situation and wondered many times, how can we ever resolve all these conflicts? Your article has finally shown me the way: Never talk to the people you identify as philosophical opponents... Brilliant! Why didn't I think of that?

The only thing I can imagine more idiotic than holocaust denial conventions is refusing to speak to the people who convene them. We don't have to convince them the holocaust happened - It's not an issue. The issue is conciliation now. We get there by negotiating like civilized humans, regardless of how we feel about the beliefs of others, not by pouting over percieved blasphemies.

The factual knowledge is real impressive - I would have thought all that accumulated knowledge might have actually taught the lesons by now as well.


Mohamed A. Maher - 1/13/2007

Hi,
i'm a muslim..i raised in an islamic family, in an islamic country.
sometimes i ask myself, what is the difference between islam and other religions! why is it supposed to be better than them?...but when i read the quran.. i know all the answers of my questions!
first of all, muslims belive in all the prophets, like abraham ,isaac, noah...all of them..but we also belive that jesus is a prophet, not the god and not the son of god..
we believe in every miracle happened by jesus, but he was a prophet.
when i ask myself why is the christians wrong in this point, why aren't they right, i find the bible that you read , is written by men!! and each versions has many different things than the other one...so it had some changes when it was written by these men and when it was translated. on the otherhand i find that the quran is only one book for all muslims..there no versions in it, and not a single word is changed when you read another book, and the words in the quran were directly said by god...no man wrote his opinion in it...and i find that it believes in all the miracles and powers of jesus....so i think i would better believe the words that were said directly by god, rather than believing the words that a man wrote..
for the questions that came to your head, you will find that the quran answered it !!! just try to read it and you will find that..
we believe that when a man hadn't heard the message, god will judge him by his doings and his internal faith...but if he heard the message and droped it...he will be guilty and go to hell.
for your second question, i really didn't understand what you mean in it very well..so try to verify it better. finally if you want the answer of any question in your head just try to read the quran..may be it would satisfy your questions.
we live only once....and we hope that we enter the heaven when we die...so we have to be sure that we are on the right religion...just try to read the quran..may be you would see things by another point of view... just try , nothing to lose...


blank blank blank - 1/10/2007

look at Christianity's dark history of violence in the name of God—the Crusades, forced conversions, pogroms, the Inquisitions, and now those christian missionaries in poor third world countries taking advantage of people telling them convert for food or money. if we are talking about which religion is violent according to history and acts of it's believers then, christianity takes the prize. before you bash any religion acknowledge that any religion, including yours, can be manipulated and perverted to evil ends.
that's all folks


Mohamed A. Maher - 1/9/2007

Hi,
1st of all, i'm a muslim from egypt, and i have came to this page, just by chance..
i just wanted to say a few words..
first, we as muslims, belive in all the prophets abraham ,isaac,moses, jesus...all of them. and we belive in the bible. but not the one in your hands. we belive that god have sent the bible to jesus(who is a prophet) , but what u read now, is something different in our point of view, because the book you read, is written by people! not sent by god..so we believe that it has changed.
in the quran (god sent it as it is, and no man have ever changed a word in it) , there is chapter called " Mary" ( the mother of jesus)..and we belive that jesus was born with no father..and we believe in all the miracles of jesus..but we say that he was a prophet from god not god himself or his son...we don't believe in the trinity because, we don't believe that god and his son and the soul are all god !!! god has no sons
our god is all people's god. and how is god is his son and the son is god !! are they 2 different ones or the same one !!
some people think that that muslims are some suicide bombers and elqaeda and these stuff...but they are totally wrong...these people are extremists...by the way there are more than a 1 billion muslim around the world...no one of do these stuff..
there is something in our religion called "jihad" i'm sure that many of u have heard this word before but don't know what does it mean..
i think that the english translation for this word could "resistance"..
the jihad has many parts, like u have to resist yourself from doing bad things and so on ... and there is a part which we could fight in it...when 2 fight !! 1-defending my land 2-defending my money 3-defending myself or my soul if someone wanted to kill me 4-defending your wife or your sister or your relative, if someone wanted to rape her....i think they are occasions that any human have to fight in them.
finally about the difference between sunnis and shiets...it is not that big...the sunnis are about 90% of the world muslim's..and what is the main difference between them !? it's that the shiets say that we have to consider the sons of the prophet mohamed as a holy people..but sunnis say that there is nothing called holy people except our prophet mohamed and the other prophets including jesus ..
everyone of us will die someday..and he wishes that he is on the right religion....so what i want from u is just read the quran...u won't lose anything....may be its right...just try...
i hope that i have cleared the picture for u a little bit.


Andy Frueh - 1/9/2007

I strongly dispute that Sunni/Shiite violence is "recent" and was "unleashed by America."

Although "recent" is highly relative, the makers of such comments clearly mean to indicate that it's happened after the American invasion of Iraq.

Bull! I remember sitting in my FIFTH GRADE social studies class (we're talking 1985 here...20+ years ago) and being taught the difference between these factions and how they were fighting. I also distinctly remember NBC Nightly News discussions on the Iran/Iraq war and crises in Lebanon mentioning Sunni/Shiite conflicts.

In many ways, it's akin to the violence between Protestants and Catholics that we saw hundreds of years ago in central Europe (and even far more recently in the British Isles). Although these days, Jewish and Christian sects are more likely to schism than bomb each other, it's historical fact that conflict WITHIN a particular religion can be just as if not more heated than intra-religion conflict.

Quaint warm-and-fuzzies at your local Baptist joint on Sunday mornings and Ice Cream Socials and Jewish Community Centers aside, the world would be FAR happier WITHOUT religion.


jon mcfarland - 1/1/2007

Well i went to google and typed in sunni vs shiite because i read a local newspaper and it sead Saddaum Hussain has been hung. First off i agree with Mike, you people got way off topic. But I continued to keep reading because some Muslim towhead dude up there said he was better then me and it pissed me off, so obviously i had to just keep reading the rest of the thread. I probably speak for the majority of a 21 year old male in saying ur a faggot anyways ur not better then me. Anyways i might as well tell my two sense about this whole page. Im presbyterian and im not very religious. i often have great drunken conversations and philosiphical arguments of how the world runs, how it was made, and just questions about life and religion with my friends. I think the pagan religion was pretty cool but i honestly still to this day dont think any religion is correct. But i do have my doubts about some:HINT HINT: the muslim religion or the catholic religion. For instance yah u muslims go ahead and blow urselfs away, hack at it guys just leave ur highjacked airplanes away from my country. The catholic religion im not really ripping on just dont agree totally with it. I dislike the jewish religion because they just simply killed jesus which was kinda gay ya know. Ill leave this thread with a... i honestly dislike anyone, no matter what religion, that worships a guy like sadam. Sucks for all u muslims we did just like come to ur country rock ur world and capture torture and hang ur leader. no matter what americans>towlheads. God bless our troops over there-get em- (hopefully bush will be resigned soon and u can come home)

Ps. b4 u go critisizing me do allow me to say i do know there are cool muslims out there and im not very educated at all about the whole middle east situation but my harsh words only go to the ones that hate on my kind if your not that disregard the offensive language.


Lori Lyon - 12/17/2006

After the DaVinci code came out many television programs came out about religion. One of the issues I found to be interesting is what books were chosen to be in the bible. I did not know that Mary Magdeline and Judas as well as others wrote books that did not make it into the bible. From what I have read "continuity" was the deciding factor on which books made it. I would like to know more about this and hear what others think. Who decided, what was the criteria, why did only the books written by men make it in?


Lori Lyon - 12/17/2006

There are religious extremists in all religions. Do you think Christians that bomb abortion clinics pray first?


David Latz - 12/12/2006

I started asking myself the same just after 9/11 & began studying the topic as best I could. As an introduction, I would recommend "No God But God" by Reza Aslan and "Islam: A Short History" by Karen Armstrong.

After the death of the Prophet Muhammad in 632 CE, there was no clear successor to the Prophet. A majority of Muslims elected Abu Bakr, one of the Prophet's closest companions, as caliph. A minority dissented, arguing that the Prophet had passed leadership of his community to Ali, his cousin & son-in-law (the dissenters became known as "Shiat-Ali," meaning Partisans of Ali, which was later shortened to Shi'a). Ali accepted Abu Bakr as caliph; two others (Umar and Uthman) would be elected as the 2nd and 3rd caliphs. In 656 CE, Uthman was murdered. Followers of Ali urged him to seek the caliph; other muslims refused to pledge allegience to Ali and launched a civil war. Ali himself was assassinated in 661 CE.

The followers, or partisans, of Ali became known as Shi'a and regarded Ali as the first Imam. Those who accepted the majority election of the first four caliphs (the "Rashidun," meaning the "rightly-guided ones") became known as Sunni (ie, followers of Muhammad's "Sunna," meaning tradition).

The pivotal moment in Shi'a history would come in 680 CE, when Ali's son Hussein and 72 of his follwers were massacred in the southern desert of present-day Iraq after challenging the authority of Islam's 6th caliph. For the Shi'a, Hussein came to symbolize resistance to tyranny & his martyrdom is commemorated to this day as a central act of Shi'a piety. These events helped establish a precedent of a martyrdom complex - that is, a communal sense of oppression and injustice (helped by the fact that the Shi'a, with few historical exceptions, have never really wielded political power, living mostly as a marginalized minority under Sunni rule), against which the Shi'a must struggle for justice, as well as the glorification of martyrdom.

In Shi'a teaching, 11 more imams succeeded Ali on the basis of male primogeniture. The 11th imam left no male heir, causing Shi'ites to split into several sects. One sect (Ithna- Ashari, ie, "Twelver," or Imami Shi'a) holds that the 11th imam actually did have a son after all, named Abul-Qasim Muhammad (the same name as that of the Prophet himself). The 12th imam is supposedly al-Mahdi, the savior of mankind who will return shortly before the Day of Final Judgment, waging war on the forces of evil, ushering in a period of perfect justice, and heralding the end-times. The nutcase that calls himself Iran's president (Ahmadinejad) is reported a member of one of the more radical sects following this tradition (if you really want to make yourself pessimistic about the future of international relations, try reading up on the sect - the Hojatieh - who are so radical they were actually banned by the Ayatollah Khomeini).

As for why Muslims pray towards Mecca, in 624 CE Muhammad, during the Salat prayer, told his congregation to turn around so that they prayed in the direction of Mecca rather than Jerusalem. This change was essentially a declaration of independence; by turning away from Jerusalem towards the Kabba (in Mecca) - which had no connection with Judism or Christianity - Muslims tacitly demonstrated that they were reverting to the original, pure monotheism of Abraham (who lived before the revelation of either the Torah or the Gospel).

I welcome any corrections to my mini-historical record; this is just what an infidel has been able to gleen from books, articles & the internet.


jo jo ho - 12/11/2006

nuke all muslims. take the oil. desecrate the remaining bodies. bomb the shit out of mecca.

btw, you guys are idiots. stevie's account was either hacked or changed by an admin. have a nice day.


Mike Fritzel - 12/6/2006

I found this discussion by putting in a search for "difference between Sunni's and Shiite's". I have to say that you people can sure get off a subject. I want to understand why two branches of the same religion are killing each other?


Pedar Gilley - 12/3/2006

Has anyone noticed most posts have a twinge of anger and some are seathing with anger. I think the angry prize goes to Stevie. I would also add

from Galatians 6:7 (NIV)
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

A man reaps what he sows. If one is angry he gets anger in return. If one is kind he will get kindness in return. If a man gives respect he will get respect. If a man plants corn he will get corn. If a man works he will be rewarded. If that work is in aid to a community then his reward will come in the form of what he sought for that community. If a man sows havoc,, he has not yet wildly dreamnt of the havoc that will be reaped unto him.

Yet another off topic comment. I just felt it should be said. Good luck
Pedar


Jason Skrzypiec - 11/29/2006

First, let me start off with my religious upbringing. I grew up with my parents in the Roman Catholic Church until I was about 13. We then moved to a small town and continued to go to the Catholic Church. After a while, we realized it was just lip service. The only thing we were getting was a big dent in our wallets, and the assurance that if we continued giving money, we would go to Heaven (kind of sounds like indulgences all over). We then tried the Lutheran church, and it was infinitely better. We actually read the Bible in church. What a concept! I also started studying the Bible intensively with the pastor, and didn’t like what I found. I did find many contradictions in the text. When the pastor was questioned, he just said to take it on faith. That didn’t sit well with me, so we arranged meetings with his superiors that were to know the book even better than him (himself having 3 doctorates relating to religion, theology, and biblical studies). Each person I spoke to knew of my contradictions and many more and told me to have faith.

As time went on, I lost touch with the church. I figured if they couldn’t write a book the flowed smoothly, I didn’t want to have any part of it. Also, one of my biggest problems was one brought up earlier in this discussion: those that hadn’t heard the message going to Hell. Another problem I had was that because I wasn’t XYZ (insert here) religion I would either suffer for all eternity, or should be killed for my beliefs. After a lot of soul searching, and a 12-step program my outlook on religion has changed.

I now believe in the loving, caring God. I still believe in the Lutheran faith, and was just appointed to church council, but have my own skew on it. Just because a person is in a jungle in Africa, and has never heard of God is no reason to punish him for all eternity. Likewise, if a Muslim or Hindi or any other religion believe in their faith, and live their faith, they will be rewarded in the afterlife. I have spoken to my current pastor, and she agrees with me. It may not be the strict Lutheran stance, but she believes that religion is something personal between a being and his or her higher power, whatever it may be.


Jason Skrzypiec - 11/29/2006

First, let me start off with my religious upbringing. I grew up with my parents in the Roman Catholic Church until I was about 13. We then moved to a small town and continued to go to the Catholic Church. After a while, we realized it was just lip service. The only thing we were getting was a big dent in our wallets, and the assurance that if we continued giving money, we would go to Heaven (kind of sounds like indulgences all over). We then tried the Lutheran church, and it was infinitely better. We actually read the Bible in church. What a concept! I also started studying the Bible intensively with the pastor, and didn’t like what I found. I did find many contradictions in the text. When the pastor was questioned, he just said to take it on faith. That didn’t sit well with me, so we arranged meetings with his superiors that were to know the book even better than him (himself having 3 doctorates relating to religion, theology, and biblical studies). Each person I spoke to knew of my contradictions and many more and told me to have faith.

As time went on, I lost touch with the church. I figured if they couldn’t write a book the flowed smoothly, I didn’t want to have any part of it. Also, one of my biggest problems was one brought up earlier in this discussion: those that hadn’t heard the message going to Hell. Another problem I had was that because I wasn’t XYZ (insert here) religion I would either suffer for all eternity, or should be killed for my beliefs. After a lot of soul searching, and a 12-step program my outlook on religion has changed.

I now believe in the loving, caring God. I still believe in the Lutheran faith, and was just appointed to church council, but have my own skew on it. Just because a person is in a jungle in Africa, and has never heard of God is no reason to punish him for all eternity. Likewise, if a Muslim or Hindi or any other religion believe in their faith, and live their faith, they will be rewarded in the afterlife. I have spoken to my current pastor, and she agrees with me. It may not be the strict Lutheran stance, but she believes that religion is something personal between a being and his or her higher power, whatever it may be.


Eric R Bush - 11/26/2006

Many historians do realize that the bible has been heavily altered throughout the ages as was previously mentioned. However, look at how and why it was written in the 1st place. It was ordered written by a non-christian Roman (he did not convert until he was on his deathbed) (this became known as the 1st vatican council) by a group of priests that went around eastern Europe and Eurasia gathering up the various books, or scrolls deposited by Paul during his travels.

They then decided what was important and what was not and included them in what became known as the bible. By the way most of these books are not in the King James version. It was then changed again after it was decided that the original was too long.

It was ordered written in the 1st place because the emporer was concerned that too many different belief systems were being practised and eventually this would create major problems.

Many christians tend to ignore this "true history" in favor of one that better fits their beliefs of a bible written by God. It is true that the Quran is probably more true to its original than the Bible by a long shot.

Muslims that truly follow their book are generally good people. Only the few that have twisted their faith into evil make it bad for everyone. Remember there is no right or wrong for the various belief systems, or more specifically which one you practise, there is only the evil that comes when they are twisted around into something else.


stephan chandler - 11/25/2006

I read here: “everyone has a right to his opinion…”. This is only PART of the statement. The statement should read “everyone has a right not to get tortured and/or murdered because of his opinion”. In America we HAVE that right. Obviously the people of Iraq are NOT expected to have that right. Sooo… why not?

Incidentally… if I can believe that actions speak louder than words, philosophy, or belief; what does the spectacle of Shiites and Sunnis slaughtering one another tell you about Islam? I for one shun it, and will have nothing to do with it. But it does not matter what I say or do about it ultimately: if Abraham Lincoln is to be believed (“A house divided upon itself cannot stand”), Muslims will just continue to kill each other off until there are none left, or they will convert to some other lesser-explosive religion.


eric mataras - 11/19/2006

Peace be to all. Muslim, Christian, Jew, Pagan and all. SOme commnets on this very interesting thread. I believe Mecca was where Hagar found water that saved her and her child after Sarah cast her out to die when she did surpringly get pregnant. She found the fountain of Mecca and now all muslims make a piligrimage.
The bible has been heavily altered by the english, romans and the translation called the Septuaguant (spelt wrong) the translation from latin to greek that is an adaptation a lot of modern reprints are based on.
If we were all one people at some point (genesis), butt naked in the woods, and time went on and our apperances changed, language divisions, as well as culture and the like, is it concievable that we are all trying to express the same thing. SOme of us hitting the nail better then others.
Buddhism has helped me, but not so much its particular spiritual idieals but practical spiritual living. I've taken a lot from christianity too and love to learn about Islam. Jews belive you can be saved without being a jew. Jesus was jewish. Does anyone suspect, the answer is to live with love and any means you do that is a manifestation of God in you on earth (you are experieng the son) Humanity as spent so long killing each other in the name of a god who loves us.

I ask us all to love eachother. Allah, Jah, Yeawah are all the same concept with cultural traditions and concepts that don't match.

Follow spirituality not lables and divisions. hopefully in a couple of more thousand years we will have been able to contribute to eachother. Seeing a full scope of the worlds developmental spiritual growth. This narrow minded righteousness has killed too many of your brothers, sisters, mothers and children. Every color and creed. You are all my brothers and sisters. I pray to something that you see it the same.



Gideon Moyo - 11/5/2006

Well three points I see here:
1. People misunderstood the English statement " the two branches of the RELIGION that MOHAMMAD FOUNDED"
2. People blame religion and war. You should be mature now oh, people. differences exist between married couples, between parents and children. War and terrorists are natural even without "religion" there will be another group opposing the "norms" this is natural. Don’t hate these things so much to end up being a "terrorist" yourself....like some hate President Bush, or someone else .... so much and even some hate Moslems and some hate Christianity as one said " [Christian]..they killed many people.." it was not Christians it was war. War has its causes, justified or not... it is natural with not only humans, but animals also. We celebrate if humans are at peace and not fighting ... but hating every war is not a solution that brings peace. You may hate it but in some cases it brings peace (forces irresponsible nations to obey international laws). Powerful nations must enforce international, humane laws even if it involves war (if not then remember .. Hitler and other dictators).
3.Christiannity is not involved in the above topic, please don’t be extremist, this has nothing to do with Christianity.


Ashfaque Alam - 10/20/2006

Sir, I would be grateful if you kindly provide the list of Caliphs of Sunni Muslims till 1920 as mentioned in your article.


TRENT D HUNTER - 9/30/2006

I mean, how dumb is it for the whole world to fight about who believes in what prophet or imam or whatever. Innocent people have been dying for hundreds of years because of ignorance, hate and basic stupidity.

The whole world just needs to stop and think. If we don't, it won't matter who believes what because there will be noone to believe.


Tired of Itall - 9/4/2006

Ok, so these guys are killing other for what reason? Because one thinks Zeus was the only God and the other thinks that Zues's buddies were given his power to rule? Lets face it, the limited gene pool of the middle east has made these people almost retards. If they weren't killing each other over fake gods, they'd be doing it because one guy looked at another guys woman, or because one guy dared to walk on another guys yard. Middle easterners still in the midddle east are the "high school harry's" of the world. The leave behinds, the ones that never went anywhere. As the only people who still are actively murdering in the name of some silly religion, evolution is slowly passing them by. History and evolution has taught us that if you don't assimilate, you die off. I look forward to the day that these inbreds have joined the rest of the world, or died off.


Wendell K Fry - 8/24/2006

"A god of absolute love, compassion, ominipotence is not going to send an otherwise good person to eternal hell if they have not heard of Jesus the Christ, Son of God."

George, Have you ever heard of "Jonathan Livingston, I presume?" God will send someone around the world if a heart genuinely cries out to him. A muslim woman who only heard of the name of Jesus in the Quran, cried out to God for help and He said, "You need Jesus" and then sent someone to confirm it with the Gospel message after she responded.

The Lake of Fire is God's affirmation to free will (though it is not torture, but torment. What's the difference? I'll elaborate at the end). People who reject Him in this life would only feign a desire to know Him in eternity. Those who reject Him in this life are not "Otherwise Good", for only God is Good.

God will honor peoples desire to be apart from Him and has created a place where His presence will not be. It would be wrong and poisonous to force people to be in His presence. There would forever be cries of injustice and unfairness by those who spent all their life trying to "Be like God, knowing good and evil" and trying to gain acceptance with good works, all the while not acknowledging there state of sin and rebellion against God, to which God Himself testified -- But also to which He sent Jesus to Ransom all who would humble themselves, change their mind as to not being a god, and making Him thier God. If God is Life and Love, than "Not God" is Death, Hatred and Destruction (Lake of Fire). Being away from His presence alone is ultimate pain and suffering, it is the emptiness of the complete converse of God's Character and Nature shown in His Presence -- Love-Utter Hatred, Joy-Complete Depression, Peace-Complete Unrest, Patience-Utter Impatience, Kindness-Meanness, Goodness-Evil, Gentleness-Roughness, Faithfulness-Total Unreliability, Self-Control--Well imagine no self control. Now, think of having the thoughts of everytime one rejected God, rejected His now obvious overtures (19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Romans 1:19-23).

Think of every sin, mistake and time you hurt someone or used them. Then think of every time someone hurt you, or lied to you or messed you over. Now you do not have even the feeling of Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Gentleness, Faithfulness or Self-Control to help you cope as in this world (believe me, people have some at least in this life), but rather you are living in the darkness, emptiness, anger and teeth-gnashing fire of their converse due to Separation from God. Now think of an eternity, with no patience and a second chance that will never come. That is torment, destruction and a lake of fire.

Those who try to live good out of genuine desire will not be judged the same as others, though all are sinners. Those who nonetheless reject God, though living a fairly decent life will not have as many tormenting thoughts to be agitated by the character and fire of emptiness I just described.

God Bless


greg judd - 8/16/2006

Well. If you accept everyone’s belief then you must accept mine that you are wrong.

BTW why are you quoting the OT to illustrate the beliefs of the NT? I admit there are many troubling things in the OT as well as contradictions in the NT.

If you were an ancient Jew you would have to conclude that 1. you are not the chosen people or 2. the nature of God is not what you think it is or 3. You are the chosen people, God is everything your people say, and Jews are in a miserable state because they can't follow Gods simple directions for how to live. Thus, the OT (in my understanding) is an explanation of why the chosen people look like anything but.

Then the NT becomes the new covenant; God has proven that you can’t ‘do it’ by following the rules. The NT opens the gates to rule breakers.

And: does everyone other than Christians go to hell? Beats me. But for me to say so is to say that God can not be reveled to others in other ways, which puts limits on the power of God. It just isn’t my problem. (But I do think you might be in trouble.)



Mike A - 8/11/2006

Something to think about.

Two sentences to solve all of this.

No matter race or religion, man or woman, obese or thin or any other difference humans come up with to convince themselves they are "SUPERIOR" to others (terrible human survival trait)They do so to gain advantage in life on every scale. PEOPLE ARE COMPETITIVE. Whether its people "keeping up with the Jones's", Sibling rivalry, climbing the corporate ladder or religious and political leaders vying for power, Humans will exploit every possible way to gain advantage.

With that said, Evil always has an open door.

However!

No matter what race, religion etc. someone may be, what would the world be like if we all practiced two simple things:

Work Hard (Self reliance)

Tell The Truth (Accountability)

These two sentences are deeper than you think.

Can you think of anyone you know that works hard and tells the truth.

I bet you do and you would say that person is a "Good Person"

Does anything else matter?

FYI
I do believe in god and I am of minority. Which of the two are not important for us to co exist. You can trust I work hard and tell the truth.


paul ie - 8/5/2006

There is one God. There are many religions. God comes first. If, as I walk along the path I find Osama reaching up his hand for help, then I would send my hand down to him because my other hand reaches up to God.
We are all the same. We will begin to get better when we stop choosing to see only our differences.


Carol Mwaniki - 8/3/2006

I worry when any religion is unable to take criticism, whether right or wrong, about its belief systems. Christianity and Jewry have typically "moved on" in this sense in that one can make public criticisms, no matter how vile, with no fear of being killed. I cannot say the same about Islam as the religion does not seem to have gone through a period of self analysis.

But all this is mute in that it is ridiculous that human beings need organized religion such as it is, to make them behave in a humane manner towards each other. We are supposedly evolved creatures but it seems some of us have not evolved socially, morally or ethically. This higher state of being is possible without the false guidance of organized religions greatly distorted by patriarchy, time, political and economic power struggles and the whims of the rulers over time.

To me, its all brainwashing nonsense and spirituality comes from individual self-assessment of ones place and role on this earth and his/her relationship to all other living creatures, human and otherwise.

It is time for the human race to take the next step!!


Chong Cho - 7/27/2006

To ALL Christians: If i'm going to hell for not believing ... So be it... LEAVE ME ALONE... Stop knocking on my door every Sunday morning.


Chong Cho - 7/27/2006

This comment is to Muslims, Christians, Catholics, and all you religious people of the world. Believe in what you want but don't hurt other people for their beliefs. Don't you think fighting over whose God is the right God is really f-ing stupid? People have been going to war since the CREATION of religion. It's 2006 and still going on... It's so ridiculous. I don't believe in any God, but if there is a God (any God), would he want people to be fighting over who loves Him a certain way? This war in mid-east, what a JOKE. Children, Children, Stop fighting over "he said she said"... Just stop it b/c it doesn't matter who's right or wrong.
By the wayI used to go to a christian church when i was young (forced to go) and they told me that I would go to Hell if I didn't believe in Jesus.


ronny i kanders - 7/21/2006

The control of our religions gives us (as humankind) very little leverage in assesing situations with out a filter. We can never do as our hearts allow if it is not in the best interest of our religion.

As you say, we are programmed from the womb and geography is the greatest decider in what we will ultimately belive.

Governing bodies thru history have played this to bitter resolve. The Cusades,and the Spanish Inquisition.
all the way down to suicide bombers and abortion clinic bombers.

Reaction to the misguided religious zealot has to be swift and lethal.

I belive in no god and no spirits and no afterlife I guess you can say that is my religion. I don't make excuses for my actions by envoking any god's name. I am my own man. With this I also belive any man or woman should be able to worship any way he/she sees fit.

Anyhow, the way I see it, you get rid of Religion and you solve the problem....as silly as this seems, I would much rather fight over tangible things like land or oil or musical taste than religion.


Wendell K Fry - 7/18/2006

saman fatima naqvi, This is really a discussion that would take a lot of conversation, but I studied Islam some (I read about 100 pages in the Karan (Quran)) and I saw what it truly is. Although sincere, truth is not determined by sincerity, but real power (and I don't mean the sword). Power to reconcile us to God and work in our lives, despite our selfish natures, is what truth has. There is a remnant of good desire in us, but it is corrupted, no matter how we paint it.

One religion is different, even though it is painted by some of those who claim to adhere to it in the same light as others. I will define it.

God created man in His own image, but the Bible reveals God is Love (not syrup and sugar, either), but Love has character and quality to it. Love even has a double negative in it, it Hates Hatred and Evil and that which would destroy its beloved. Love is like a doctor who tries to get a gangrene-infested body part to allow life flow and healing to flow through it, but at some point, in love, might have to cut it off to save the body. Love is selfless, and yet ultimately is a love community (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and is protected by its cycle in the community. Love created us in His image and His nature requires love to be returned by free choice, and so that free choice had to be tested. God is not "Safe" and created a world in risk that He would create man, many of those He loved might not choose Him, and He will honor that. I believe His plan was that this life we are living is a (Parentheses) if you will, where the creation and free will would be tested and those who will, will respond to Him not in their own strength, morality or intelligence, but in faith, believing His testimony and what only He could provide - salvation. He gave the Law (the 10 Commandments), not to save us, but to lead us to the conclusion that we can not be righteous, and the rest of the Old Testament, to foreshadow the Messiah and even Grace and the New Covenant (of course we can have good intentions and love others, but the depth of our sin resides in our independence in saying, "I'll do it! Help me in ways I ask, but I don't need you to do anything for me that I can do myself. Mankind can do it, we can be righteous and we want your Grace to give us the power to be good enough in ourselves and to make up the difference where we don't fully measure up. You expect us to be like you, so we will immitate you, and then you can accept us.") The Law is Good, but cannot save us. Romans 8:2,3 says the Law is weak through our flesh. What died immediately in the Garden of Eden (was separated) was our spirit and out bearing on right and wrong, and life then centered on the needs and cravings of our bodies and minds now also separated from God (the flesh), because we now noticed our nakedness, and the rest of our lives are spent in covering our lack of true innocence and righteousness. We cover it with attempts at being, looking and feeling righteous in ourselves "God, please notice and acknowlege my good attempts, my good intentions and my good points and ignore my bad points". "Isn't that Grace?" No, not that way. Grace makes a way where there is no way. You can't take a dead body and reform it, it is still dead. We must be reborn. Jesus Christ is God's provision, He did what we can not do. First He reconciles us to Himself. It's not deeds that need reformation and changing, (That is what all 'Religion' is), but God is a relational being (That's what the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is by nature) and it's a relationship that needs restoration. THEN deeds can and need to make a difference, coming out of a new life.

The Cross is humiliating, but it is the power of salvation for all of us, to believe that God would do what He did, removing any vestige or opportunity for us to save ourselves through our own honor.

The Quran, (in the version I read) about 100 pages in does away with the cross, that is what I saw is the center of the deceiver's purpose, to alienate an entire culture from the only thing that can save - the Grace of God in Christ on the Cross, testified to as God's Son through the many-witnessed resurrection, calling out to all, "Come to Me, all you who are heavy-laden and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, and you shall find rest for your souls, for My yoke is easy, and My load is light." (in Matthew 11)

The Quran says (paraphrased from my memory) "do not say that Christ died on the cross, for I took him and I put an imposter to die in his place". As a spiritual detective one can see that Muhammed gives himself away. He injects his personal respect for Jesus in not allowing such an exalted figure to be killed so humiliatingly (almost all the prophets of God were killed), just like Peter would not let Jesus stoop so low as to wash his feet. God's testimony to us is that we are sinners, BUT ALSO that He has made a way in Jesus, ONLY in Jesus, through the humility, foolishness, horror and evil of the cross, something we have to humble ourselves to receive. But, if we hear His voice, let us also listen and respond, repent from self-governorship, self-godhood, really, and receive His FREE GIFT, and make Him your Lord and your God!


Steven Honeywell - 7/12/2006

If you read carefully at this string of comments, then you will clearly see that the largest problem that all humans have is understanding each other. Confidently, yet ignorantly, we speak as if we know the correct answers, but we don't. They are simply our beliefs ingrained into us since our childhood.

In our hearts we know that killing and violence is wrong. Why? Because that is what God (our hearts) tell us. No god or goddess would allow the atrocities that have besieged the world. The joke of humanity is not really seeing what we are doing to each other. We are all people, with the same basic needs, but very different thoughts and beliefs. Should these thoughts and beliefs encourage death and destruction?

I am a white (European descent)American. I struggle with what I believe as far as higher beings are concerned. I am just a man with many imperfections like all others.

If I am the only person that happens upon another who hangs by his/her hands from a cliff, I do not care what beliefs he/she has, what religion he/she follows, what color skin he/she has, what size he/she is, what poor choices he/she has made....I simply extend my hand and offer him/her my hand as a caring soul.

We are all just missing the point. Chase away the things that alienate us, cherish the things that bind us.


Ryan Letey - 7/6/2006

Removed at request of the poster.


G. Carrick - 7/1/2006

Maybe i am going to put show my ignorance but i think the wholesale slaghter of people under the guise of a religion, race, political stance shows our ignorance. Eastern, western, muslim, christian, whatever. And the current situation in the Middle East/Africa/etc... should be left for those involved to "sort" themselves out and then when they want to play nice with the rest of us then they can apply to the rest of the world.


kathy gardner - 6/26/2006

To everyone who’s written on this site:

1. Americans (and others in the world) tend to have a negative opinion of Muslims because all we see of Muslims in the news is the barbarism of Muslims beheading innocent people, Muslims suicide-bombing themselves and murdering innocents in the process, Muslims carrying signs reading such things as, “death to all who don’t believe in Islam,” and Muslims celebrating their murders of these innocents - ALL SUPPOSEDLY IN THE NAME OF GOD!!. But what we DON’T see are the good Muslims standing up AGAINST these crazed murderers. If all we ever saw of blue-eyed people was blue-eyed people murdering and celebrating their murders, then blue-eyed people would be thought of in a negative way by most. If, as I hear so many Muslims say, most Muslims are good, then why don’t we see any good Muslims standing up against the evil ones? That’s like saying there were so many GOOD Germans in World War II, but the BAD ones made them ALL look bad. The truth is that THE GOOD ONES SHOULD HAVE STOOD UP AGAINST THE BAD ONES. But, because they generally did not, all we saw were the bad ones. Don't blame Americans and others who "stereotype" you, if all we see are the stereotypical. [Of course, the mainstream American media is largely to blame for this, also - since all they show us is the bad. I mean, seriously, the American media wants us to believe that Middle-Easterners are not all bad – and yet all they show us is the bad! How about showing those who fight alongside the allies for freedom - and showing how MUCH they WANT freedom??!!)].

AND MY SECOND, AND MORE IMPORTANT POINT IS THIS:

2. GOD GAVE US FREE WILL – NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE THAT FREE WILL AWAY FROM US!!!! The Muslims we see in the news all the time are often murdering those who don’t believe as they do, and carrying signs STATING that they’ll murder those who don’t believe as they do!! THEY DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DICTATE, YES I SAID DICTATE - AS IN DICTATORSHIP, TOTALITARIAN REGIME – THEY DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DICTATE OR FORCE OTHERS TO BELIEVE AS THEY DO!!!! That’s why America was formed in the first place – RELIGIOUS FREEDOM!! Do you people believe in religious freedom or don’t you? AND, if you DON’T believe in religious freedom - then perhaps YOU should be the one FORCED TO BELIEVE AS OTHERS WILL HAVE YOU BELIEVE??!! Too many people – even in America – don’t understand why America is such a great country – it’s BECAUSE (ONE MORE TIME – ARE YOU READY FOR THIS?) GOD GAVE US FREE WILL - NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE THAT FREE WILL AWAY FROM US!! The founders of our great country understood that. I wish everyone did (of course, thanks to the political correctness crowd - the REAL neo-nazis - those freedoms are being stolen from under us). Whatever happened to: I MAY NOT AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAY, BUT I WILL DEFEND TO DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT!!! Take heed those who don't believe in this statement -- for YOU MAY BE THE ONE BEHEADED SOME DAY FOR YOUR OPPOSITION!!

AND MY LAST POINT:

3. Jesus said, “love thy neighbor as yourself.” If you don’t want anyone to harm YOU, then don’t harm others – that means with word or deed. The Golden Rule - we don’t teach it in public schools any more, but we should.


William C - 6/26/2006

Your statement that Christians are to kill non-believers indicates that you have not actually studied the New Testament or Covenant. The Lord Jesus actually stated his objective was to establish a New Covenant, and that the rules could be summed up quite simply by loving the Lord God with all one's heart, mind, body, strenght and soul, obeying the 10 commandments, and loving one's neighbor as one's self. To be honest, I have to admit that there have been, and probably still are pseudo "Christian" groups who have used excerpts from the Old Testament to justify their evil acts. I find it interesting, though, that I am at a loss to come up with a Muslim country where this type of civil discourse could take place. God bless America


Jonathan Dresner - 6/26/2006

In Iraq -- perhaps elsewhere, I don't know -- there are distinctive naming traditions which serve as shorthand markers, though they do result in unfortunate "false positives"...


Milton Harmon Haynes - 6/10/2006

Tigger,
Your observations and comments seem to be very GOD like. (In my humble opinion.) In that, (if i'm correct), there IS only one GOD, regardless of what language we use to identify HIM for our own benefit. The few books i remember reading about GOD's messages to humanity seem to all parrot the same theme- LOVE one another. Somewhere along the way, we have been subverted into doing just the opposite! Oh, well, i guess i just want to go on record somewhere, (like here), to acknowledge the significance of the events taking place now- we may be in the final throes of this system of human experimentation. May Peace be within you.


George Rolff - 6/5/2006

A god of absolute love, compassion, ominipotence is not going to send an otherwise good person to eternal hell if they have not heard of Jesus the Christ, Son of God.


johnt mc ii - 6/5/2006

A recent example quoted from an AP article posted on Yahoo news:

Ismail said he had been driving his pickup truck behind the vans and was stopped too. About 15 masked men wearing traditional robes known as a dishdashas forced everyone out of the vehicles, he said.

"They asked us to show our IDs, and then instructed us to stand in a line, separating the Sunni from the Shiite due to the IDs and also due to the faces," said Ismail, a Shiite Kurd.


johnt mc ii - 5/29/2006

I've been wondering this for a while-- is it possible to recognize a Sunni or Shiite by sight? I often read of ethnic killings, e.g., a bus is stopped and all of one sect are killed, so what's the determination by the killers? 20 questions? clothing? slight difference in skin color? ID?


Tigger Steuart - 5/27/2006

Wow, I stumbled on this site by accident and have enjoyed the reading. Mostly good people stating their thoughts and opinions. I will introduce myself by saying I am a Pagan (Which means so many things, but in my case it means I accept everyone's belief) and I have a Doctorate in the Philosophy of Theology. Which means I still know nothing, but I know more of it.
First, has the bible been changed? If you are referring to the best seller known as the King James Version, the answer is yes. Three distinct revisions since it was published in 1611. And then you have to ask how accurate is the KJV? Created in England 60 years after Henry VIII had torn up the existing religious structure. This topic is too long for more details right now, but easy to learn about with minimal effort. As for the Muslim need to kill any non-believers, the Christians also have a need to do the same. Check out Deuteronomy 17 if you need proof of that. Shall I start dissecting the Quran now? Not worth it, it too has seen a number of changes in the past thousand years.
So what is my point in all this babble (here comes the sermon) stand strong in your beliefs, and gather strength in what you believe. Allow others to believe as they wish, and if it does not harm you, do not let it bother you. Believe in one God, and accept that the words of the Lord can be seen and interpreted in many different manners. Take the best you can, let the goodness fill you, and share it with all you can. That means whether you be Christian (Many options there), Muslim (Shiite or Sunni), or Pagan (way too many options), if you hold fast to your beliefs, you will not be affected if some one else has a different viewpoint. The good or bad in a person does not come from how they pray, but in who they are.
OK, I am done. Release the hounds and blast away at how wrong you think I might be.


Mourad Benrahmoune - 4/14/2006

In order to clarify some thoughts and ideas to the poeple who has made no accurate research about the personality and characteristics of the prophet of Islam, I wouldreveal to you what westerners says about him.

The following is a list of fair and impartial contemporary scholars' testimonies about Mohammed :

Fair contemporary celebrities, upon reviewing and reading the biography of Allah's Messenger SAAW fully admitted his honor, nobility and leadership. The following are dome of their testimonies

1. Mahatma Gandhi, in an interview with Young India Newspaper, said, 'I wanted to know the characteristics of the man who possesses the hears of millions of people, without any doubt. I became fully convinced that the sword was not the mean by which Islam gain it positions and grounds. It was rather the simplicity of the Prophet, his truthfulness, promptness, dedication, and devotion to his companions and followers, besides his unmatched courage and his unparalleled trust and confidence in His Lord; Allah, the Almighty, in addition to his full belief in his Mission and Message of Islam.
These matters were the qualities and descriptions that paved the way and eased the difficulties, and not the sword. After completing the second volume of the biography of Mohammed, I felt sorry that there wan not enough materials to learn more about his life.'

2. Professor Rama Chrishna Raw, in his book entitled, 'Mohammed, the Prophet', says: 'We can not know the entire personality of Mohammed, but all what I can present of his life is fantastic scenes…

There is Mohammed, the Prophet and messenger, Mohammed the fighter, the businessman, the spokesman, the reformer, the orphans' guardian, the slaves' protector, the women's liberator, the judge, and all these roles were enough to qualify him to be a hero.'

3. The Canadian orientlist Dr. Zuwaimer, in his book entitled, 'The East and its customs', says, 'Undoubtedly, Mohammed was on of the greatest Muslim religious leaders. We can rightly say that he was a super efficient reformer, eloquent, brave, courageous, great thinker whom we should not attribute to him any description that contradicts the above qualities. The Glorious Quran, which he brought forth for humanity, is a great testimony for this claim.

4. The German orientlist Britly Saint Heller, in his book entitled, 'The Orientlists and their creeds', says, ' Mohammed was the head-of-the-state, who looked out for the life of his people and their freedom.
He punished those who committed crimes and felonies during his lifetime. He called for the worship of One God; monotheism.
He was extremely kind in his call to his religion, even with his enemies.
He possessed two characteristics in his personality amongst the highest qualities: justice and mercy.

5. The British writer and critique, Bernard Show, in his book Mohammed, which was ordered to be burnt by the British authorities, says, 'This world is in a bad need for a man with the thinking style and ability of that of Mohammed. This Prophet who always placed his religion in a respectable and honorable position.
This religion is the strongest to digest all civilizations and be an eternal religion.
I notice that many British citizens embraced Islam rightfully. This religion will find great accommodation in Europe.

The clergy men in the middle ages, as a result of discrimination and ignorance, had painted a dim picture for Mohammed. They considered him an enemy for Christianity!.
However, after researching his personality, I discovered that he was a great man. I concluded that he was never an enemy for Christianity; rather he should be called the savior of the humanity.
In fact, if he is given the leadership in our world today, he will resolve the entire world problems in a manner that secure peace and prosperity for the entire humanity.

6. Senrasten Asoji; Semitic languages professor says in his book, 'The history of Mohammed's life', 'We would not be fair to Mohammed if we denied his great qualities and characteristics.
Mohammed led a real battle against ignorance and barbarism insisting on his principles.
He continued to fight against the oppressors until he reached a clear victory.
His religion is the greatest religion and he is above all great people in history.'

7. Senex, the American orientlist in his book, "The Arabs' Creed', says, ' Mohammed appeared after five-hundred-and-seventy years of Jesus, His mission was to promote and improve the human minds by introducing the best ethics and morals to them and teaching them monotheism, and informing them about the Hereafter, or life-after-death.'

8. Michael Hearts, in his book, 'The 100 most influential people in history', 'Choosing Mohammed to be the first, most important and greatest men in history may surprise the readers, but he is the only man throughout the history who succeeded on the religious and worldly affairs levels.

There are messengers, prophets and wise men who started great missions, but they died before completing them, such as the Messiah in Christianity, Moses in Judaism.

But Mohammed is the only messenger who completed his religious message and all it rulings were complete. Complete nations and peoples followed the religion of Mohammed during his lifetime.

Besides, he established a government and a state, which is considered as a worldly affair as well. Mohammed united all the tribes and clans in one people and established laws-of-life. He set his nation to preach the religion to the rest of the world. Therefore, he is the only man throughout the history who succeeded on the religious and worldly affairs levels.

9. The Russian writers; Tolstoy, whose literature and writings are considered to be on the best international literature: 'It suffice Mohammed that he salvaged a humiliated bloody nation from the grip of Satanic customs and put them on the road of development and progress. The Shariah laws of Mohammed shall spread all over the world because it agrees with the common sense and wisdom.

10. Dr. Shperk, the Austrian says, 'The entire humanity should be proud that a man like Mohammed belongs to it.
Despite his being unlettered man he was able to bring about a legislation system that we will be the happiest people is if we reached its peak and the maximum of that legal system.'

11. The English philosopher, Thomas Carlyle, the Nobel Prize winner says in his book, 'The Heroes', 'It is extremely shameful to anyone to believe that Islam is nothing but a bunch of lies. And, it is equally shameful to believe that Mohammed is a liar and cheater.'

We must fight such shameful rumors. The mission that Mohammed achieved and fulfilled is still the lit candle for the past twelve centuries for approximately two-hundred-million people.
How would one believe that the principles, which this huge number of people lived and died by were a mere lie and trick!?

12. Ghotte; the German writer also says, 'We, the European people, with all our thoughts and concepts, did not reach yet what Mohammed had achieved. There will be no one to beat Mohammed and his principles that he called for. I have searched the history for the best example, and found it to be in the personality of Mohammed.
Truth must prevail as Mohammed was able to subject the entire world by the pure words of monotheism.

These were some excerpts of the some of the renowned international scholars of the world concerning Prophet Mohammed .
Why then to say, write or publish harmful items that destroy and harm instead of construct and benefit.!!

Actually the list is still long there are so many philosophers and free thinkers that admitt the truth like:the philosopher thomas carlil in his book "the heros", gustav lobon,cont henry dicastry in his book "islam", the well known english philosopher margliot, the famous writer jerjes in his book "an article on islam", the two writers henry and denaly thomas in their books " the religious leaders", the two researchers dozy and len paul and the priest lozon and Dr H. marcus the islamic philosophy professor so many others...


melissa marie manicone - 4/11/2006

Would it hurt western society to continue to take steps forward and lead the world into the future with positive and peaceful assurances by "fessing up" to that which was brewed onto countries? Countries that were considered to be, by western comparitive standards, barbaric? The Western world should submit and reap the consequences of actions labored even long ago, because the persistance of the Shiites will not let up and unless reconciliation reveals itself in the matter of some form of submission from westerners, we may as well consider the future dead.


Mourad Benrahmoune - 4/11/2006

sorry the reply was for Nax Phonex and not to tatiana. sorry once again for the small mistake


Mourad Benrahmoune - 4/11/2006

Hi Tatiana,
I have read your comment, I do respect it but can´t accept it at all for one simple reason how come a man with all these sociopsycho deficiencies and sicknesses has today more than 1 billion folloer, alomost 1/5 of the world´s population.
it is cristal clear that in any objective study of a historical issue we should also be aware of so many variables as the social, economical and cultural aspects related to the topic.hense, I try imply the first step and clarify some misunderstandings in the text below:(there is a list of the prophet mohammed wives in the middle)

Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), the prophet of Islam, is one of the most influential personalities in the history of humankind. More than one-fifth of the world population follows his teachings and the Quran, which was revealed to him by Allah (God).

The conduct and actions of Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) were inspired by Allah ( God ). He possessed an excellent character, charming manners, and was highly revered. His noble character remained the same in victory and in defeat, in power and in adversity.

The following is a short introduction the Prophet's (peace and blessings be upon him) wives, the years of marriag,e and possible reasons for the marriages. Except for Khadijah and Zainab bint Khuzayma, all of Muhammad's wives died after him:

*

Khadijah bint (daughter of) Khuwaylid married in 595 CE; widow; died in 619.
*

Sawada bint Zama married soon after 619; widow.
*

Aisha married in 622; virgin.
*

Hafsa bint Umar married circa 624-625; widow, political.
*

Zainab bint Khuzayma married circa 626-627; widow; died soon after marriage to Muhammad.
*

Umm Salama Hind bint Abi Umayya married in 626; widow.
*

Zainab bint Jahsh married circa 625-627; widow and divorcee.
*

Juwayriya bint al-Harith married circa 627-628; widow, possibly political.
*

Umm Habibah married 629; widow, political.
*

Safiyya bint Huyayy married 629; widow, captured in battle.
*

Maymuna bint al-Harith married 629; widow.

The Prophet also had a slave, according to the customs of his time, Maria al-Qibtiyya (Maria the Copt), with whom he had lawful conjugal relations. She was given to the Prophet as a present by Al-Muqawqis, the Byzantine governor of Alexandria at the time. She was the mother of Muhammad's short-lived son, Ibrahim.

Proper understanding of Prophet Muhammad's family life is extremely important, particularly for Jews and Christians who have adopted prohibitions against polygamy within their own religions. An in-depth look at the scriptures of the three Abrahamic religions would illustrate that the One true God directed his prophets with the similar messages, laws, and guidance and wished for us all to live together in peace and harmony.

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (Quran 49:13)

Finally, it looks that you have been getting information only from anti-mohammed websites, it would be a good idea if you read and search further in the other side of the wall and compare yourself. here is a link that I hope you could have time and zest to explore : http://muhammad.islamonline.net/English/index.shtml


John Edward Philips - 3/23/2006

I read the Qur'an, too. The phrase "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" is there, too.

This God is the god known as "El" in the ancient Middle East. The name just means "god" in Semitic languages. This cult, which developed into Judaism, Christianity and Islam, dates back to at least the time of Ebla. Don't forget that Melchizedek was a priest of the El cult.


John Edward Philips - 3/23/2006

If you're still there, you can find out more about Unitarian Christianity from http://www.uuchristian.org/

FWIW, five US Presidents (Adams, Jefferson, JQ Adams, Fillmore and Taft) were Unitarians and therefore didn't even pretend to believe that Jesus was God.


Ruby Tuesday - 2/25/2006

John Edward Philips on August 22, wrote "The Muslim and Christian Gods are the same God, God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

That is wrong. The Muslim god is the god of Abraham and Ishmael. Ishmael was the father of the Arabs. Muslims believe that Ishmael was the son that God promised to Abraham.

Hagar was the mother of Ishmael, but the promise was made to Abraham and Sarah. "Sarah your wife shall have a son". (Genisis 18:10) And that this son would be the father of a great nation. Muslims also believe that Abraham took Ishmael not Isaac, up on the mountain to sacrifice him. and that god spared him.

Sarah laughed at this because she didn't believe that God could give her a son because she was too old to have a children. Sarah told Abraham to get Hagar the Egyptian bondwoman pregnant and that would be the child God had promised. If Sarah had believed God's promise, Ishmael would never have been born and the world would be a better place today. the Arab Muhammad (PIG) would never have been born. Muhammad twisted the story in the Bible


Ameen Siddiqui - 2/24/2006

salaam. i completely agree with john, not all muslims are terrorists. every religion has their extremists. islaam does have extremists but how can you call a religion that has been going on for hundreds of yoears peacefully. the extremists are the minority. oh yeah by the way you sucessfully changed the whole topic into terrorism, what a surprise


r asbury - 2/24/2006

Interesting post. Certainly though, as a Christian, you believe Christ's followers are destined to paradise, whereas all others are doomed to hell. We cannot save ourselves nor earn our way into the presence of God for eternity. Jesus Christ made the way for us though. Praise His holy name.

Christ himself said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me." It gets no clearer. Jesus was not merely a prophet while on this earth. He is the Son of God. He came here as God in the flesh, to die for our sins, simply because He loves us.

Religion is man's attempt to find God.
Jesus Christ is God's way to save man.


Jane Doe - 2/24/2006

Good point!


Jane Doe - 2/24/2006

Hello all!

I really find this topic very interesting. I come from a Muslim family, practiced the religion and even tried to convert people to become one but now I’m a born again Christian. I’ve been exposed to both religions since I was little, thanks to my wonderful parents that made me explore. I like Christianity because it shows peace and kindness toward humanity. Putting aside the Quran and the Bible for now, I see a lot more Christian people showing favors to the poor and less fortunate people across the nation. There are thousands of missionary workers who have gave up their 9 to 5 jobs to assist less fortunate people because of the love of Christ. I go to the mosque, yes you can pay your sakat, help the poor, but are the Imam really making sure that is done. There is a different between given poor people gifts than actually helping them out. All the mosque I’ve been to, the money that was collected at the congregation is used to renovate the mosque or distributed among the workers of the mosques. Imam or member of the mosque do not get up and say let feed the homeless. (You might be asking yourself, why I don’t initiate this. I wasn’t thinking about it at that time.) From my experience, I never attend a mosque that say this is how much they donated to support 911 survivors or Katrina survivors, etc. The Bible and the Quran are historic books that we practice but how useful are the resources we are getting from them. What is the use of these books if we can not practice what they stated?

I used to think that Islam is so pure because prophet Muhammad (SAW) wrote the book. But what is the possibility that someone has not altered the truth since the death of the prophet. As with the Bible, there are witnesses to God and Jesus miracles. Even Quran support Jesus miracles. So, the question I’m asking myself is what book is really telling half true if not all true. Is it to believe many people/apostles witnessing and expressing the truth versus one prophet that claims God send him the truth?

Another thing about my former religion is the way the Quran was written. I used to be scare of the Quran, because most of the messages are if you do not believe in God and his prophet, you will go to hell and a lot of Evil being mentioned. Even though, there are different kinds of Muslims, the Sunni and the Shiite, the only different is that they do not agreeing on the leadership of religion but they both have the same book.

As for the violent, it is sated in the Quran to kill unbelievers, if you are a Muslim follower you must believe in this if not you are not following your religion.
Surah 47 vs. 4. “Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah.s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.” (To learn more about Quran, please visit: http://web.umr.edu/~msaumr/Quran/index.html)


Christian and Muslim are both complicated religions but it comes down to what an individual choose. Put aside your family opinions and media opinions. Educate yourself about the logic of the book as suppose to what people practices the religion. Then you can judge.

Another mind twisting question is that, why did Muslim pray towards Mecca? Did the Quran say anything about praying toward Mecca? Isn’t one of the commandments is not worship an idol. What is really inside black stone? Any guess?

This are just my opinion, everyone has the right to theirs. I see that all religions are all about Faith and doing good to others. Muslims and Christians are not the only religion to consider, we have Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist and many more. So are you telling me only one is going to a paradise and the rest are going to hell? FAITH IS THE KEY!


T H - 2/24/2006

Whoever believes the bible has been changed doesn't know there facts unlike R Asbury who has bothered to do some research.
Also Saman Fatima Navqi and Jon Black What do you believe has been changed in the bible, please tell us as I am genuinely interested? What makes the Muslim religion great? I'd like some facts to explain that to me because I really don't know and am very ignorant when it comes to the muslim faith so I would like to understand what makes the muslims believe this. Plus why do you believe that other religions are wrong? Please respond or anyone who can tell me as I really don't know.


r asbury - 2/24/2006

The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm that from the ninth centuries A.D., the Jewish scribal copying of the Old Testament Scriptures was accomplished with remarkably few errors. With the exception of minute copying errors here and there, the Dead Sea manuscripts exhibited virtually identical readings to their counterparts of the ninth century. They proved that the many scholars who expressed doubts concerning the accuracy of the Massoretic text were unfounded.


Jon N Black - 2/22/2006

saman fatima naqvi is right. The Bible has been changed. I am a Christian but what keeps me from practicing to the extent that I would like is that is has been changed so much. It is a FACT. I don't have the time to go into detail but if you do not know that about your own religion or choose to ignore it then I might as well not me typing. The Bible has gone through so many hands and been translated so many times that a lot of the menaing has been twisted. Before you go off on this look into it. The Christian faith has also prevented other rightings from coming forth. There are so many more rights that were not chosen for the Bible that is will blow your mind. Who made these choices as to what will go into the Bible? Not God... nor was it Jesus. It was religious leaders.

The Muslim faith is very complex but simple at the same time. What you see on TV is not represetative of it. All Muslims I know are beautiful people. Yes there are bad ones out there but there are bad Christians too. MANY of them. You do not have to look to far into headlines of the past few decades to find some really bad ones.

The Muslim Holy Book is a very pure writing. Altered slightly if at all. I wish our Bible could say the same. I WISH our Bible was written by Jesus himself but unfortunately it is not.


john r robertson - 2/19/2006

Nax..who are you to judge people, not all muslims are terrorists or bunch of trouble makers... i know alot of muslim people, they're so nice and love the Americans, some could be jerks, but i doubt that everyone who's muslim is a terrosist or whatever.. oh man i hope you guys won't teach your kids to be racist or hate whoever is not American or christian, because that's just wrong, you'll make yourselves look so stupid..


john r robertson - 2/19/2006

About Stevie Free's comment " who cares, we should nuke them all and take their oil and women"... i know you've apologized and everything, but i don't buy it.. so let me get this straight..you're willing to kill innocent people and innocent children for oil?.. wow if the U.S ever did that, then i'll be ashamed to be an American...so think about what you're saying Stevie, i know for sure this whole war is probably about oil, i mean seriously Bush is saying this war is to free Iraq, hmm i don't know about you all, but since the war began, thousands of innocent people died there, including our soldiers.. and more people keep dying there, as you can tell i'm not a big fan of Bush, cuz what he did ruined many many many people's lives...am i right?..if some of you don't agree, then it doesn't really matter to me, it's my opinion and felt like telling you all this war ain't making things better.. i mean the only good thing about this is that they got rid of Saddam, and we probably could have done that before in another way, not sure how, but the government should have thought about it before making quick decisions..


don willo - 12/8/2005

didn't those who boarded two or three aeroplanes recite verses from the quaran before plunging these iron eagles into the twin towers and killing thousands?

and, weren't muslims those who stormed out of arabia in the 600's,and killing thousands of human beings just like themselves?

are they who claim to belong to the one,last,true,God sent religion the ones who openly and illheartedley butchered an innocent civilian with a knife in the name of their God and faith Faith.

don't they who belong to the religion of islam the ones who daily strap explosives to their bodies and senselessly blow away humans like themselves?

what is truth?

God bless!


Nax Phoenix - 10/9/2005

www.faithfreedom.org

THIS IS WHAT ISLAM IS ALL ABOUT - WAR, TERRORISM, DISCRIMATION...

DID YOU KNOW THAT MUHAMMAD WAS:

a rapist
a pedophile (had sex with a child aged 9 when he was 54)
an assassin
a mass murderer
a ruthless torturer
a lecher
a misogynist
a narcissist
a thief and plunderer
a cult leader
a mentally deranged (was paranoid, heard voices, hallucinated of seeing jinns, Satan and angels, used to think he had sex with his wives when he did not, suffered from depression and had suicidal tendencies).

IF YOU DISAGREE THEN VISIT:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm

OR FOR THE HOMEPAGE VISIT:
www.faithfreedom.org

THE TRUTH IS ONLINE


Nax Phoenix - 10/9/2005

www.faithfreedom.org

ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF WAR, TERRORISM, DISCRIMINATION...
Explains the Qu'ran in depth and if you can prove the author wrong then you will win $50,000

If you're narrow minded and consists of utter stupidity then don't bother checking out the link - www.faithfreedom.org


A M S - 9/24/2005

Excuse me Peter... you should probably correct that piece of information of yours. That Islam has been spread by the sword, may be, but that would be the Islam of Abu Bakr as you have stated. What I really disagree with is your comment "Without those there would be no Islam today". Oh yes, definitely, there would! I hope you do know that Islam is the fastest growing/spreading religion today, and I guess we would both agree that this is not happening with the help of the sword, nor with that of the suicide bombers. Not wishing to dwell much longer on these ideas, I would like to go back and explain the reason I am at all replying to your comments.

As you know, we all are expressing thoughts that have been triggered by the article on the difference between Shiite and Sunni Muslims. Ever since the death of the Prophet of Islam, Mohammed, a lot of things were done, and a lot of statements were attributed wrongly to him by the ruling Caliphs, who snatched power while he was yet to be buried, and while he was attended upon by his rightful successor, Ali. These power-greedy companions of his have conspired to take over the state of Islam at that time, paying no attention to his original teachings, and commandments, sort of speak. Ever since, these people have become, to the majority Muslims, the source of teachings that could be of very serious and twisted consequences. Again, I don't want to dwell more on this, and I don't want to do anybody injustice. After all, the majority Sunni Muslims are innocent, peace-loving people whose only fault is that they inherited teachings/traditions that they wouldn't question, and that they take as the teachings and orders of God and the Prophet.

As opposed to that, (and you'll have to excuse me this time, because I am running out of time, otherwise I would really elaborate!!) you see the Shiite teachings and approach. The first of the Shiite 'apostles', Ali, who I have mentioned above, came out after the burial of the Prophet, to be shocked that the powerful few have already appointed Abu Bakr, and have forced people to pledge their allegiance to him. And what did Ali do? (Mind you Ali was one of the most powerful, if not the most, worriers/leaders of Islam).. Ali could have gathered some of his supporters, and could have gained many by just reminding people of Mohammed's explicit orders of following him and pledging their allegiance to him even before Mohammed's death... but he didn't... and why didn't he? well, because he feared that a confrontation with the others might cause casualties... he went for the most peaceful solution... mind you that that solution did cause him the life of his wife, the burning of his house, etc. but he was patient in the face of all that... he continued silently to spread the true word of God, and to raise his saintly children and prepare them to carry the burden of carrying the right message to people, no matter what the repercussions would be.

To me, Ali's position was one page in the bright book of the real Islam, the religion that cares nothing for power or money, the religion that wouldn't shed one drop of unrightful blood.... and I hope that gives you an idea about what true Islam thinks of suicide bombers who blindly kill the innocent... it gives you an idea about what the real Islam thinks of the 9/11 killings of thousands of innocent civilians... and so on...
And if you are really interested in finding more about this (and I hope you are, seeing that you have done quite a bit of research previously) I would really suggest reading more about Shiite's beliefs and doctrines, and when you do a significant amount of research, and hopefully get a chance to meet and discuss that with few Shiite scholars, I hope you will see for yourself what real Islam is all about, how Islam views life/after-life, people, other religions, etc.

Best of luck...


A M S - 9/24/2005

Hi John. For some reason, I loved your short and sweet comment on all that has been stated previously. One thing that particulatly got me curious is the "Unitarian Christianity". I am not a Christian myself, but I do have a general idea about the belief; the Unitarian Christianity sounds new to me. Would you kindly care to explain that to me?


John Edward Philips - 8/22/2005

The Trinity is the three "persons" or "entities" of Almighty God

You don't seem to know your own religion, much less Islam. "Persona" is Latin for the mask an actor wore in the theater. "Tres personae in uno deo" literally means "three masks on one God." You seem to think that three different people all claim to be God.

The Muslim and Christian Gods are the same God, God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Was Jesus an incarnation of that God? I'll leave those who like to argue to argue. But there is a long tradition of Unitarian Christianity.


Viv Barker - 7/17/2005

Not that I can answer any of your questions. But you are mixing questions of political power with questions of spiritual guidance.

It would appear that, for 13 centuries at least, the Muslim world has been a religio-political entity. No church-state separation at all. I have a lot to learn about the establishment of the Muslim-dominated arab states, but I'm assuming their borders were established by colonizers. Betcha in the good old days, it was a fluid consensus of nomadic tribe-families, all of whom paid allegiance, & were guided by, the caliph. The description of the succession since Mohammed sounds about the same as a monarchic history. Contrast this to the Popes, whose successors were based on election not blood (supposedly!); there was at least an attempt, right from the start, to separate political power from family ties-- maybe that's the original motive behind establishing celebacy of the priesthood!!

The point being, conflicts over Mohammed's and caliph's successors are about power, not about spiritual guidance. The Judeo-Christian tradition also incorporates such contrasts. We Christians have our bloodthirsty Old Testament, updated and modified by the teachings of Christ & the apostles (the New Testament). The Torah (Old Testament) is interpreted and brought into current relevance down through the centuries by the Talmud (the writings of Jewish prophets and philosophizers).

Perhaps Islam has no corresponding mechanism for understanding how its teachings apply to the modern world. Perhaps that is a reflection of their relatively recent arrival on the scene. We in the West shudder at the low value they place on the individual life (e.g. religious terrorists raising a generation of self-detonating 'martyrs'). We should not be surprised. It is within the same culture that even today females' genitals are mutilated so they do not stray, and not so long ago a hand was severed for thievery, a tongue for gossip.

The vast oil fields of the Middle East were discovered at a time when segments of the area were still culturally primitive. In those places, the 20thc was suddenly inserted into a 10thc society. Great power was suddenly acquired, not only by sophisticated nobles, but by antique tribesmen. The shock waves will continue.


John Undisclosed - 6/30/2005

I think what you are trying to say is that the God we serve has existed forever, thus, the beginning of a belief in One God (monotheism) has been in place since the first man Adam was created.

For example, Christianity means "followers of Christ" and we believe that Christ came from God who has been from the beginning. Christianity, does not do away with any of the old teeachings about Abraham, Moses, and the earlier prophets. Notice that in the New Testament of the Bible (2000 years ago) none of the apostles or writers came up with new teachings about the Creation... The first 5 books (The Pentateuch) is kept intact.

However, Mohammad received revelations from an angel that contradict some foundational teachings about the story of creation.

For example, in the Quram (The Cow), we see the fall of man when Adam sinned for the first time. Same as the Bible (Genesis). However, the way God deals with sin in the Quram is totally different than how He does in the Bible... Pay close attention.

[2.37] Then Adam received (some) words from his Lord, so He [God] turned to him [Adam] mercifully; surely He is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

Agreed that God is Merciful... but He is also a JUST God. Meaning that there must be payment for sin. The most basic concept of justice is that some form of payment must be made when someone breaks the law (this is common sense as well).

However, here we see that God turns to Adam mercifully but there is never any payment for sin. No one dies. Not even spiritually.

In the Bible, however, the book of Genesis (chapter 3) tells us that when man (Adam) sinned, he died spiritually and is now separated from God. Then God takes payment for man's sin through the sacrifice and the shedding of blood. Later, we see man trying to "cover up" with fig leaves, not quite as good as God's solution for them (animal skins). It is implied that for God to provide them with animal skins, He had to sacrifice an animal and shed blood to pay for their sins. This is a picture of Jesus "paying" for the sins of humanity 2000 + years later.

This takes us to the main difference between the Bible and all other beliefs in the world:

- All other religions, including Islam teach that we can pay for our sins by doing specific things... pray 5 times a day, ramadan, pilgrimage, etc.

- We Christians believe that nothing we can do can ever pay for the wickedness of our sin. That only perfect payment can pay for our sins. This payment comes from a perfect source = Jesus, the only man known to have never been guilty of sin in the world) Thus, we attain right standing with God through faith. Nothing we do will ever satisfy the requirements of holiness and purity. We believe that Jesus paid for our sins and that by faith in the perfect sacrifice done by the perfect man (Jesus) we can be in right standing with God.

How can a sinner pay for his sins?

As far as I know, God (you call Allah) is Holy. We agree on that.

God is a God of Justice... otherwise, we could get away with all the evil we want to do as long as we do the right things to pay for them. There is never an internal change on the intentions of the heart of a man.

Bottom line is, our hearts can never be cleansed by external rituals, but only by internal transformation. Islam does not allow for any way for God to come INSIDE of a human being and transform him to the point that man now has a new nature that "loves" to please God.

Islam has many rules that a man should obey and pleasing God comes merely from obedience and submission (which is good) but never from loving Him. Like the love of a child to a father. Is Allah a GOD of love according to the Quram? I think not.

Islam is not a relationship but merely a code of conduct and reverence.

Christianity is both a code of conduct, reverence but must important... a relationship with God.

I personally, love to please God and obey Him because I love Him and He is my daddy, not because I am afraid that I will go to Hell if I don't perform all the required rituals...

What happens to a Muslim who has sinned that is not able to pay for his sins. Meaning that he cannot physically bow down? or a Muslim is never able to save enough money to go on a pilgrimage? or a Muslim who, because of medical reasons cannot fast sunrise to sundown for a whole month??? Will that Muslim go to Hell because he did not do the necessary things to be in right standing with Allah?

I tend to think that Yes, God is merciful, but your Quram does not allow for any payment of sin outside of what WE can do. Therefore, we are making God an unjust God if He "just forgives" that person (by mercy) without ANY form of payment.

Jesus - The Messiah and Savior of the World - sent by God Himself, has paid for my sins, and i have a clear conscience that I am positive that will be with God for ever, with Islam, you are never sure that you have done enough good to attain salvation. By the way, salvation is not attained, but is a gift from God.


John Undisclosed - 6/30/2005

Sorry i did not address the last question.

In short, Islam is a new teaching, not merely a completion of an earlier teaching.

If Islam was a COMPLETION of an earlier teaching, the Quram would NOT change the creation story and the life of Adam. But why did the Quram change the basic doctrine about the first sin in the world?

Therefore, the Quram tries to go back and UNDO a teaching that had been in place since the times of Moses.

Islam cannot be traced back to the origin and creation because the ONLY person in the world who received revelation about how God created the world was Moses.

Mohammad's revelation of the creation is ALMOST IDENTICAL than that of Moses, EXCEPT for those details that are SO crucial to understanding God's character... like PAYMENT FOR SIN -

It is implied that Islam is a new teaching, beginning from around 632 A.D.

-----------

One last thought... the Quram says that Jesus was a prophet from God, and we see Jesus' character and love for people.

Jesus NEVER changed the teachings of any of the prophets from before (Moses, Isaiah, Elijah, etc) and Jesus' character proves it so. Rather, Jesus fulfilled every bit of the law.

However, the revelations Mohammad received from an angel about the creation story do not keep with the same teachings that Moses had previously received.

Our conclusion must be that either Moses was wrong in his revelation from God about the creation...or.... Mohammad was wrong in his revelation from the angel about the creation.

Food for thought -


John Undisclosed - 6/30/2005

God loves each and every one of us, so much that He gave us the option to obey Him or not (forced obedience will never express genuine love). In other words, love takes the chance of not being accepted (like in a marriage situation, a wife should not be forced to marry).

I believe God is not only our creator and judge, but also our father. He is longing for us to come to Him as we are and ask Him to forgive us for all the evil that is in our hearts. Ultimately, we must trust God to change our hearts and give us a new beginning.

If any man claims he has not sinned, he is a liar and should realize that we are who we are and have what we have only because of God's grace and mercy.

I respect my Muslim friends in their devotion to God (who they call Allah) so much that i wish we were that devote as Christians, especially in America.

Secondly, i wish that my Muslim friends would start to see God not only as one to submit to but also as our father... our daddy, who loves us and who wants us to love Him. I wish I could express the love of God but that is something that only comes by faith and believing what He says.

Mohammad clearly recites in the Koran that Jesus (Isa)was a prophet who did miracles and was sent by God. I would go a step further in encouraging my Muslim friends to read the book of John (in the Bible) and read for yourself the character of Jesus and analyze His teachings. (I am reading the Koran myself as a way of analyzing the teachings of Mohammad and cross examine them with the character of God's prophets like Abraham, Moses, etc)

Religiuos systems have a set of works we should do as way of attaining peace with God... pray 5 times a day, fast for a month, communion, etc, etc... although these are great things to do, we can never attain salvation of our souls by doing any of these things. If works were the way to Heaven, then the list would be enormous, since God is a Holy God and all sin must be paid for.

It is by faith that we come to God, not by works so that no one should boast on himself and what he has done.

God loves us and cares for us and wants us to come closer to Him. One last thing... as you pray, try talking to God as if He were your father, using rational and expressive words rather than mere repetition.

God Bless you guys!


David Thomas - 6/26/2005

Why do the Shiites believe that only the 4th caliphe and his decendents are ligit ? What did the other 3 do (or not do) to make them unworthy ? Did they all preach a different form of Islam ? Why is this soooo terribly important if the teachings of Mohammed are clear. Is this important enough to kill someone for ? I must assume then (admitting that I know little about Islam) that Islam condones murder 'in his name'. Is this true ?


peter c scott - 5/17/2005

Oh, but sorry, Islam was spread by the sword. Look at the conquests of Abu Bakr. Without those there would be no islam today.


peter c scott - 5/17/2005

Melissa, I'm afraid your comments are completely retarded. for a start, The evidence you are using to confirm jacob's legitamacy is the same as the Muslims use to confirm Ishmael's legitamacy: ancient texts which are bound to support their own race. the wars in the middle east are predominantly between jews and muslims, caused by christians because we threw jews into the home of Arabs, like a stone into a hornets nest. Far more people have been killed in the middle east by the hands of Americans than Americans by the hands of muslims. on top of that, 9/11 was not an attack on Christians. If your leaders would be honest with you they would have told you that bin laden's only request was that america remove their army bases from the arab nations, which I personally find quite understandable. if I had a n Iranian army camp down my road i would fight against it (not to the extent of the 9/11 attacks, but lets be honest, far more gain has been brought about for the American elite from the attrocity than they have lost.)The Christian crusade led to the death of hundreds of thousands of people, the rape and robbery of peaceful civilizations and many countries are still suffering the effects these "missionaries" had upon their cultures. As for suicide bombers, I have far more respect for someone who can take their own life with others for a cause than someone who takes other's lives with the push of a button hundreds of miles from the scene. Any killing of innocent people is a tradgedy but an inevitable result of oppression from western imperialists.

Please come into a discussion on islam with more than some booklet from a christian pastor. (american I'm guessing?)


Mads Jensen - 4/24/2005

Demon,
I agree with your pan-religious educational background and tolerant views but I have to take issue with parts of your musings. First of all, if you'd get out of your ivory tower and come down to the ground with the rest of us mere mortals youd realize that companies only "flood the world" with their product after they see if it is profitable and if there's a market. MacDonalds execs arent running around the world shoving big macs in poor, confused, simple minded peoples' mouths and enslaving their labor force, its as simple as this: people go to macdonalds bc its cheap/fast/filling. If the people of the world wanted to unite and destroy the great satan of US corporations then theyd take their lazy ass to the grocery store and make their own food, simple as that...its so easy to play the victim.
Secondly, I don't see the correlation between "strip joints, drugs and prostitutes" and the west. If youre even vaguely familiar with the global narcotics trade then you would know Afghan opium "floods the world" with dope, funds terrorist groups, and puts people in all countries in methadone clinics...and unlike macdonalds people get addicted to herion and kill for it. The majority of poppy is harvested by Afghan farmers and transported/sold to Europeans via the Balkans by Turkish organized crime groups. As for prostitutes and "strip joints", the huge problem of human smuggling to Europe and the US orginates in northern africa and Russia. Cocaine comes from South America and is shipped everywhere by violent cartels. There are bums everywhere and making some sort of causual link between unemployment/alcoholism and the profit crazed west is about as idiotic as blaming crime on black people.
I'm not saying the US isnt a violent and alcohol/drug infested place but I'm just conveying the general idea that when you make blanket statements like your "flood the world" gem you have to realize that you paint yourself into a corner. Also, we tried to let Afghanistan and Iran "develop at their own pace" in the 70s and 80s and that turned out fantastic...ever met any asylum seekers who fled the Taliban or left their families behind in the Iran-Iraq war? What do you think about the pace of their former countries development? Its not fair to blame the west for the ills of the Muslim world yet at the same time fervently choke down the perks (i.e. the west buying oil thus keeping the middle east's economy running)...once again, hypocrisy.


Gary Norris - 4/5/2005

Samia,
Wait a second...when and how has the Bible been "CHANGED"? I'd be very appreciative if you would explain this or at least give me some evidence to support it, Just saying that it is a truth does not make it so. For instance, I could say, "there is a McDonalds on the corner of 52nd and Main st" but if that's all I say, I cannot prove that it is truth. Support your arguments or don't bring them up.
I belive that Stevie said all of this because he/she is probably the stereotypical American. When a person is exposed to the negative side of something for so long, that person tends to build predjudices against that something. I also believe that Stevie was quite possibly under the influence of drugs when he/she wrote that statement (he/she has stated in other posts that he/she was high while writing these kinds of offensive posts). While people may be able to hide their predjudices and grudges while they are sober, very few of them can while they are under the influence of a drug. Stevie's built up prejudices exploded as he/she was not able to contain them due to being under the influence.
I heartily disagree with you in the statement that, "after all BIBLE and HOLY QURAN were both sent by the same God". While our Gods may be similar in the fact that they are both omnipotent, omniscient, loving, and merciful Gods, they are not the same God whatsoever. The most prominent reason that I believe so is that I believe in the Trinity, and I'm pretty sure that you don't. The Trinity is the three "persons" or "entities" of Almighty God: The Father (God), The Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. This means that Jesus Christ, being the Son of God, was both fully human and fully God. Since you believe that Jesus was only a prophet, a normal human (correct me if I'm wrong), our Gods cannot be the same.
Again, I apologize if I have offended you in any way, shape, or form. I look forward to hearing from you regarding the "the bible has changed" statement. May God bless you in all of your endeavors.


AMK AMK - 2/19/2005

Who the hell are? And what do you know about Muslims.....


samia fatima naqvi - 2/13/2005

Gary,
i admit i must be a bit rude to stevie but the way she talked about muslims and the WORDS she used surely made me angry!
in a way you are right that u people mostly dont have any knowledge about islam and the negative things shown on media make u think about islam in a negative way and hate it. And yes, everyone is free and has free will to follow any religion they want then why did stevie say all this. You should first tell these things to her! so that she never again attacks and use abusive language for the other religions and the followers of it.
i also know a bit about christianity and i know there are a lot of similarities in these religions because after all BIBLE and HOLY QURAN were both sent by the same God but still there is a difference in beliefs and that is mostly because BIBLE has now been CHANGED. this a truth.
In the end i will only like to say that whatever differences we have, we still are all humans and are bind together in the relation of humanity so forget the differences or atleast dont think or say bad things to others!


Jim Macias - 2/2/2005

I'm pretty naive when it comes to the difference between Sunni and Shi'ite muslims. Let's say, hypothetically the Shi'ites gain an overwhelming majority in the new Iraqi government, and draft the new Iraqi constitution. How exactly would this affect the Sunni population? Would they have less rights? How would it affect day to day life?


Mac K Chaudry - 1/24/2005

Hi,
I would like to answer/comment to your first ideas and perspectives about Islam but my time is limited right now and (God willing) I shall return to those. However, the main reason why Islam forbids the physical touching between male and female (except husband & wife) is that theres a chance that one of them may get the wrong message. There may occur unexpected/unwanted chemistry among the two and create problems. Actually, this is suggested by Islam out of respect for women. Do always beleive what people say, instead be a scientist and do your own research and (God-willing) you may see the truth. Islam was not spread by the sword, but by way of example and standard. "Islam" literally means "peace" not war. Those who misinterpret it are at fault, not the religion. Consider the following website for deeper insignt: www.harunyahya.com You may really enjoy reading and understanding (God willing). Feel free to email: m_chaudr@yahoo.com

Mac


Gary Norris - 12/15/2004

Dear Steph,

You bring up an interesting point, and I'm glad that you asked.

I want you to consider the order that the Ten Commandments are in:

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
5. Honor thy father and thy mother.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10. Thou shalt not covet anything that is thy neighbors.

Keeping that in mind, look at the top of the list, number one commandment. "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me". This commandment is #1 for a reason; it is the most important of all the commandments that God has given us. If you disobey that commandment, you're pretty much done... no heaven for you.

I believe that the farther down the list you go, the more mercy there is. Now don't get me wrong, nobody should ever break a commandment because they can "just ask for forgivness later". But am I correct in assuming that putting "Pete, the god of doorknobs" before God is a lot worse than lying? Both are bad, and both are a sin, but the former is a greater sin.

God is not a big fan of the things that cause you and I to sin. In Matt 18:8-9 its written: "If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose part of your body and live forever than to have two hands and two feet and to be thrown into the fire that burns forever. If your eye causes you to sin, take it out and throw it away. It is better for you to have only one eye and live forever than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fires of hell".

With that said; what were the false prophets that God commanded his people to kill doing? They were causing God's people to sin. And not just sin like lying... sin like putting "the god of doorknobs" before Almighty God. So in order to save his people, God commanded them to kill those false prophets. He commanded them to cut off the hand (the false prophets) that was causing them to sin so that they might have eternal life. God was not commanding them to kill out of hatred or just for the sake that they were a different religion. But for the sake that it was those "prophets" that were causing His people to turn away from him and commit one of the greatest sins you can commit.

I have no doubt in my mind that if the false prophets had ONLY been causing God's people to want their neighbors donkey, the outcome would have been less severe. But in this case, the ends justify the means.

I hope that I cleared that up at least somewhat for you Steph. Respond if you feel the need too. Again, I thank you for your time.

In the love of the Savior Jesus Christ,
Gary


Melisa Whattenbarger - 11/24/2004

This is my first visit to this site. I have become very inquisitive regarding the Muslim religion since the terrorist attack on 9/11. I read a really good article written by a pastor from Prattville Alliance Church that helped me to understand where the creation of Islam came from. The article explains why Ishmael, Abraham's firstborn, was not the promised seed of God, but of Abraham's disobedience to God. Genesis 16:10-12 states, "and the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply they seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard they afflicition. And he will be a wild (Heb. Pere - def. wild ass) man; his hand will be against every man and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren".

"Ishmael was the firstborn son of Abraham. He was not the promised seed of God but the product of human endeavor in order to help God out. As usual, when man tries to do things his way instead of God's way, the law of unintentional consequences comes into play. In this case it resulted in the birth of the Arab nation". "The promised seed of Abraham was Isaac through whom Jacob would come, who in turn would give birth to the twelve tribes of Israel. The land of Canaan was promised by God to them, not Ishmael. God calls Ishmael a wild ass whose hand will be against every man. This truth of the Arab nations, coupled with the acceptance of Islam through the false prophet Mohammed in 600 AD, has created grief to the whole world. Islam is a globalist ideology that calls its adherents to conquer with the sword. All pagans, Jews and Christians are their enemies".

This being said, a really good example of this belief system is seeing the unrest between the Arabs, Muslims, Islam, etc. and the other religions of people of the Middle East and throughout the world. It appears evident of the consequences of Ishmael, being the first born, but truly not the promised seed of God. It is a shame that so many innocent people die due to the misunderstanding of Ishmael and Mohammed, an ideology that condones and encourages the killing of their "enemies" which are those who do not accept their religion.

I do know that not all Muslims do condone and encourage killing people of any religion. I know some Muslims personally and they are really nice people. I am also aware that they believe that women, children and old men should not be killed, even in warfare. Unfortunately, religious fanatics do not adhere to this belief system, as proven in the murder of two female hostages and Kenneth Bigley, Nick Burge and others beheaded in Iraq.

I pray for people of all religions. I pray that they find the true God and become saved through Christ. The Lord forgives all sins and tells us to pray for those who hurt and/or persecute us, regardless of religious beliefs. I am not aware of the Muslim religion promoting this.

I am confused by the martydom of suicide bombers and their belief that they will go to heaven and be rewarded with seven virgins. I would like to ask someone who is more knowledgable on this subject to enlighten me. It just doesn't make since that the true God would ever reward someone for killing innocent people and commiting suicide, which is a sin. What are the female suicide bombers promised after they blow themselves up, seven men to do with as she pleases? I can't image her reward.

I also had an encounter with a Muslim man one day at a gas station. I was paying for my gas and he told me not to touch him. I asked why and he said that women were unclean. I politely told him that if I were unclean, then so was my money. I pushed it into his hand and made sure my "uncleanliness" touched him. I couldn't believe that I had just heard something so ridiculous. I told him that I would not be back and I would tell everyone I knew about his remarks. At first I was offended, then I realized that his behavior was just another example of how degrading to women that his religion is. This may not have been the best way to have handled the situation, but I was just expecting to pay for gas, not to be told that I was unclean. (His body odor was obvious.) Would someone please explain why women are considered unclean? I really do not know.

I really have no intent to offend anyone reading these comments, but I hope I have raised some good points to open up an informative discussion. The more I learn about why people justify their actions through God, hopefully, the more I can try to understand it.

I just wish peole of all faiths could live in peace and harmony, but God has told that this is not his plan.

Praying to all for Christ's acceptance into your hearts,
Melisa


imran ahmed ahmed - 11/23/2004


Islam is the first and the oldest of all religions. People have a misconception that Islam is 1400 years old and that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the founder of this religion. Islam existed since time immemorial, ever since man first set foot on this earth. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was not the founder of Islam. He was the last and final Messenger of Almighty God.

So please update ur information.

It is a fact that Muslims today, are divided amongst themselves. The tragedy is that such divisions are not endorsed by Islam at all. Islam believes in fostering unity amongst its followers.

The Glorious Qur’an says: "And hold fast, All together, by the rope Which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves;" [Al-Qur’an 3:103]

Which is the rope of Allah that is being referred to in this verse? It is the Glorious Qur’an. The Glorious Qur’an is the rope of Allah which all Muslims should hold fast together. There is double emphasis in this verse. Besides saying ‘hold fast all together’ it also says, ‘be not divided’.

All the Muslim should follow the Qur’an and authentic Ahadith and be not divided among themselves.


It is Prohibited to make sects and divisions in Islam

The Glorious Qur’an says: "As for those who divide Their religion and break up Into sects, thou hast No part in them in the least Their affair is with Allah: He will in the end Tell them the truth Of all that they did." [Al-Qur’an 6:159]

Our Prophet was a Muslim

One may ask such Muslims, "Who was our beloved prophet (pbuh)? Was he a Hanafi or a Shafi, or a Humbali or a Maliki?" No! He was a Muslim, like all the other prophets and messengers of Allah before him.

It is mentioned in chapter 3 verse 52 of Al-Qur’an that Jesus (pbuh) was a Muslim.

Further, in chapter 3 verse 67, Al-Qur’an says that Ibrahim (pbuh) was not a Jew or a Christian but was a Muslim.

It is very unfortunate that we muslim are devided among oursevles. May Allah forgive our sins.

Imran


Steph Lee Sonderegger - 11/7/2004

THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

How is that God orders us to kill a whole town of blasphemous disbelievers and at the same time orders us not to kill, under any circumstances, in the Ten Commandments, which are supposed to be every Christian's ethical guide?


Gary Norris - 9/4/2004

Richard,
I have a tad bit more to say as well.

Let's begin with Deuteronomy 20:10-18. You really have a problem with manipulating text to get it to say what you want. It almost seems like you took sound clips from different movies and put them together to make a few sentences. USE IT ALL... I can't stress that enough.
"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the Lord your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the Lord your God has given you. But these instructions apply only to distant towns, not to the towns of nations nearby. As for the towns of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as a special possession, destroy every living thing in them. You must completely destroy* the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the Lord your God has commanded you. This will keep the people of the land from teaching you their detestable customs in the worship of their gods, which would cause you to sin deeply against the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 20:10-18)
Overall what God's points here are that, IN WAR (the old testament, keep in mind), if a city will not be peaceful with you, you must fight it. He tells us to use all of the resources or the city because they are a gift from Him, and to not use a gift from God is blasphemy in itself. When he commands his people to kill the inhabitants of the cities, it is for their own good. Because if they did not kill them, the people of the conquered cities would lead them into worshipping idols and other false gods, and we already know how bad that is from my last post on this subject.

Ezekiel 9:3-10 is one that you really have out of context. This passage speaks about a vision that Ezekiel has about the angels. This passage is not commandments or orders to God's people, but to his angels. This is what God was showing Ezekiel that He was going to do to the idol worshippers in Jerusalem.

"Then the glory of the God of Israel rose up from between the cherubim, where it had rested, and moved to the entrance of the Temple. And the Lord called to the man dressed in linen who was carrying the writer's case. He said to him, 'Walk through the streets of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of all those who weep and sigh because of the sins they see around them.' Then I heard the Lord say to the other men, 'Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all-old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.' So they began by killing the seventy leaders. 'Defile the Temple!' the Lord commanded. 'Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!' So they went throughout the city and did as they were told. While they were carrying out their orders, I was all alone. I fell face down in the dust and cried out, 'O Sovereign Lord! Will your fury against Jerusalem wipe out everyone left in Israel?' Then he said to me, 'The sins of the people of Israel and Judah are very great. The entire land is full of murder; the city is filled with injustice. They are saying, `The Lord doesn't see it! The Lord has forsaken the land!' So I will not spare them or have any pity on them. I will fully repay them for all they have done." (Ezekiel 9:3-10)

The only other thing that may arise a question right away is the fact that the Lord said to defile the temple. This seems like a confusing thing at first, but it's really not. The people who were worshipping their idols and such were doing it in the temple of the Lord. So, in short, the lord wanted to make a statement by filling the worshipping place of the evil people with the dead bodies of the evil people. That's pretty much it. I hope this brings some light onto your erroneous editing techniques. Understand that I am not attacking you as a person, but rather I am attacking your statements.

To all of you who have read Richards comments here. I hope that you take the time to study the bible yourselves and not trust the word of this man. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but every opinion should be backed by actual evidence, not parts of sentences that have been spliced together and edited in such a way that the outcome is not only malicious, but blasphemous and inaccurate as well. I thank you for your time and would entertain any questions that you like to ask.

In Christ's Love,
Gary


Gary Norris - 9/4/2004

Richard,
I can't argue with you about the Muslim God because I don't know very much about the Koran. But I can put up an argument about the Christian God.
Firstly, let's look at the entire section of 2 Thessalonians. Keep in mind the context that this is Paul speaking about the JUDGEMENT DAY, so there is no middle ground, it's heaven or hell. This is not just everyday living being described here. Also keep in mind that Jesus says: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father is through me."(John 14:6). This means that the only way to Our Father in heaven is to follow Jesus and his teachings.
"God will do what is right. He will give trouble to those who trouble you. And he will give rest to you who are troubled and to us also when the Lord Jesus appears with burning fire from heaven with his powerful angels. Then he will punish those who do not know God and who do not obey the Good News about our Lord Jesus Christ. Those people will be punished with a destruction that continues forever. They will be kept away from the Lord and from his great power" (2 Thess. 1:6-9).
Isn't it amazing how much the meaning of the passage changes when you start a verse earlier and include ALL of the words, not just the ones that work for you? God is saying that he will punish those who deny him in the end, but those who come to Him for comfort will be saved. It's the same thing with John 3:36, if you don't believe in Jesus, you aren't going to heaven...it's just that simple, there's no way around it.

Alright... on to Deuteronomy 13:6-15. This section is talking about false prophets and what to do with them. Again, if you're going to quote it, use the whole thing. You just squeezed almost 2 chapters of God's word onto 3 of the most blasphemous lines of text I have ever read.
"Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, `Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The Lord your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the Lord your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the Lord your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. "Suppose your brother, son, daughter, beloved wife, or closest friend comes to you secretly and says, `Let us go worship other gods'-gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known. They might suggest that you worship the gods of peoples who live nearby or who come from the ends of the earth. If they do this, do not give in or listen, and have no pity. Do not spare or protect them. You must put them to death! You must be the one to initiate the execution; then all the people must join in. Stone the guilty ones to death because they have tried to draw you away from the Lord your God, who rescued you from the land of Egypt, the place of slavery. Then all Israel will hear about it and be afraid, and such wickedness will never again be done among you. "Suppose you hear in one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. 'The Lord your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him'. " (Deuteronomy 13:1-18)
Let's work with that, shall we. God has nothing against people of other religions. They are his children just like any other person on his Earth and he loves them the same. He does however, have problems with people of other religions (following false gods) that try to steal his followers and corrupt them by making them follow these false gods. It doesn't matter who they are or how you know them, God commands his followers to kill these people because they tried to turn His followers away from Him. The bigger picture being that the whole of Israel would hear about this and no one would do evil things like that again. God never says to go commit genocide, but to kill those who would try to take His people from Him, so that others won't try it. I know that sounds a little harsh, but keep in mind the time that this was written in. Old testament justice is some of the harshest stuff out there simply because no one would've gotten the point if it weren't.
If any questions arouse themselves, don't be afraid to ask. Remember to use the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth when quoting God's word. Thanks.

In Christ's Love,
Gary


Gary Norris - 8/30/2004

Finally a voice of reason and logic in this crazy world. I agree with you, the people of the world need to see the stereotypes of this issue broken down. I thank you for your comment pS... if only more people thought like you.


Gary Norris - 8/29/2004

Saman,
While I sympathize with you about all of the crap that the people of the Muslim religion have put up with from Americans in general, be careful to judge. I want you to understand that the stereotypical/average American has little to no direct contact with anyone of the Muslim faith. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that the average American doesn't even know that there are two major types of Muslims. All the images that the majority of us get are through the media reporting another car/suicide bombing in Iraq or some other location in the Middle East (which as I'm sure you know is predominantly Muslim). When you lack a positive image of a religion or culture, the negative one tends to take over for all people who are affiliated, or appear to be affiliated, with that particular religion or culture. Understand that.
Secondly, there is a significant hole in the argument "u can never consider other people wrong when u urself are wrong!...". Let's say that I am wrong in your eyes (which I would be, I am Christian). Then I have no right to call anyone else wrong, correct? So then I cannot call Hinduism wrong or Taoism wrong. Do you see my point, if I can't call anything wrong then everything is right. The bigger picture here is that every man and woman on God's Earth has the free will to believe what he or she wants to believe. That is one of the things that God always lets us have...free will.
Third, attacking a person and their faith is no way to show them the love that God shows you. It is not just a simple matter of "I'm right, your wrong", and if you approach it like that all you are going to do is fan the flames of prejudice and even hatred with whoever you are talking to. There are no "best humans"; we are all equal and priceless to God. Try to listen to other's arguments before you go on the offensive. Jesus tells us to love our enemies like our neighbors, and in this way we show God's love for all his children to those who may not know it. Live in God's love and don't become offended to the point of practically screaming at the person on the screen so easily. If someone strikes you on the cheek, let them strike the other cheek too... and still love them.
Lastly, watch what you say in your arguments. Don't assume that Stevie Free knows nothing about your faith. I can ask you if you have studied the Christian faith before, and at this point you have no more proof that you have than Stevie about Islam. I have studied Islam before and you'd be surprised at the similarities between your and my religion. Both are monotheistic (meaning one God), and God in both is an omnipotent, omniscient, loving, merciful, and graceful deity. The blatantly obvious difference is that I believe that "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life." (Holy Bible. John 3:16), and you don't. I won't go on to explain why God did that now because I have already written way too much, but if you would like to know, feel free to ask.
Anyway, think about what I have said and please feel free to write back with your opinion. I apologize if I have offended you in any way. It's in Christ's love that I leave you. Peace be with you always.


t y an - 8/26/2004

I agree with Steve Free. I'm Christian. The truth is: all the religions out there are facing the same problem. Divisions within the faith. The problem is: the fanatics are all too busy talking about who did what first that they forgot the main basic teaching of religion: Be good with each other.

I think what's facing the Arab countries (mainly the Shi-ite populated places) is that they also lack modern world perspective. They were oppressed by the iron-fist rule that only censored materials can be known to the mass public. These sort of things indirectly produced suicide bombers and the sort.

The well-off Arab nations are doing ok, in fact they are up to par with western countries - it's the information age already, not the industrial or old feudal times. Domination is benchmarked by commerce domination like in the old days - how people with the most salt used to have power/influence.

These terrorists hinders progress. I suspect extraterrestrials from other star systems are laughing silly at us for fighting about who came first. Speaking of which, the arabs were the first astronomers - I doubt if they even believe that there's such thing as another solar system or can they even imagine how vast the universe is.

:P just my two cents. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm in the process of shaping my perception of the current world too. Thank you!


Samir - 7/19/2004

Out of all the muslims countries in the world none of them has stood up against the US as has IRAN which is completely a shi'ite country. So you cannot call the shi'ites weak since IRAN is a shiite country and they have been able to control and modernize their country, and no one even the US has any excuse of attacking them like they did to afghanistan and iraq. Iraq is a shi'ite country and has always been one so it is the right thing to do to let the shi'ites run their own country without the interference of the US.


K French - 6/1/2004

To Steve Free,

Are you Muslim? If so, I thought that Muslims were not supposed to drink? I don't think we should "nuke" all Muslims, but I wouldn't mind getting rid of all these fanatical, warped terrorists! And not just in the middle east but in America, Ireland and where ever else these cowardly scums hide! Comparing peaceful Muslims to these fanatics is like saying David Koresh was a good Christian man.


Jeff Miller - 5/30/2004

You have the right idea, Stevie, but it should be "fewer" not "less."


Nahed Syed Parvez - 4/21/2004

you are an ignorant person. that comment you made was not only barbaric and disrespectful, but it also was discriminatory. you should watch what you say. and try not to be a complete idiot when speaking. you would not appreciate it if i discriminated against you. so do unto others as what you would want to be done unto you. it is nnot funny to throw harsh and prejudice words as you did. if you continue to do so then i am so sure that someone with eventually bring suit against you for discrimination. and i am pretty sure you would not like that. i had enough problems with people like you and i did indeed solve the matters through legal matters and i have no problem of doing so again. i don't know if that was you who apalogized fro the comment made. if it was you then i guess you relized your mistake an dhopefully we all forgive you and you probably would not be as prejudice as you were. if that wasn't you then you should watch what you say before someone brings suit against you in the future for similar prejudice remarks.


Richard A. Scott - 4/15/2004

Just a tad more on this thought,
#3. Whose god orders the cruelest warfare?
A. Neither god speaks of cruelty in warfare.
B. Obviously, the Moslem god, since the Christian god never endorsed warfare.
C. The Moslem god because he ordered his followers to imprison and enslave their enemies temporarily.
D. The Christian god because he ordered his followers to kill all the men in the towns they invaded, enslaving only the women and children (who sometimes were to be slaughtered as well, along with every other living thing in sight).

#4. Whose god has the least pity and most contempt for the enemies of his followers?
A. The Moslem god because the Christian god advocates nonviolence and continuous forgiveness.
B. The Christian god because he orders his followers to kill all their enemies, regardless of their actions, without pity.
C. The Christian god because the Moslem god forbids his followers from striking enemies who do not fight and orders peace with those desiring it.
D. B and C.

#3 Correct Answer: D. (The Christian god because he ordered his followers to kill all the men in the towns they invaded, enslaving only the women and children (who sometimes were to be slaughtered as well, along with every other living thing insight.)) “So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates” (Koran 47:4). “And when the Lord thy God hath delivered [a city] into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones . . . shalt thou take unto thyself . . . But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth”(Deuteronomy 20:13-16).

#4 Correct Answer: D. (B and C.) “And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both males, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men who were before the house. And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go you forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city” (Ezekiel 9:5-7).
“Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice” (Koran 60:8). “And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing” (Koran 8:61).


Richard A. Scott - 4/15/2004

#1. Whose god has promised the cruelest fate for people of different religions?
A. The Moslem god, because the Christian god would never harm anyone simply because he was raised in a different religion.
B. The Moslem god because he curses anyone who does not believe in him.
C. The Christian god because he condemns non-Christians to everlasting destruction.
D. Both are equally vicious. Both gods have utter disdain for all other religions and condemn the followers of those faiths to eternal damnation.

#2. Whose god orders the most violent plight for nonbelievers while on Earth?
A. Neither. Neither god believes in violence.
B. Neither. While both gods will punish nonbelievers on Judgment Day, neither prescribes harming them while on Earth.
C. The Christian god because he ordered his followers to kill all those of a different religion, including family members, friends and even their cattle, whereas the Moslem god simply required the enslaving of nonbelievers.
D. Both gods issued equally violent orders.

#1 Correct Answer: D.
“Surely those who disbelieve . . . Allah has set a seal upon their hearts . . . and there is a great punishment for them” (Koran 2:6-7). “Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all” (Koran 2:161). When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance of them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord . . . (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9). “He that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him”(John 3:36).

#2 Correct Answer: C. (The Christian god because he ordered his followers to kill all those of a different religion, including family members, friends and even their cattle, whereas the Moslem god simply required the enslaving of nonbelievers.) “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods . . . thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people . . . If thou shalt hear . . . Certain men . . . have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods . . . Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants ofthat city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword” (Deuteronomy13:6-15).
“Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection” (Koran 9:29).


saman fatima naqvi - 2/3/2004

hey stevie free..u r reallyy free! u should not use this type of language of kicking muslims out of us! they r humans not minsters or evils! infact they r the best humans and the religion they follow is the best one! i can say this this with all my confidence because i myseld am a muslim and i am proud to be one! i myself have read the religion islam and i know how true and perfect it is! how can u consider muslims wrong or consider islam wrong!? have u ever read our islamic book or have u ever studied the religion islam!!!?? first go read and study it and then come and say that islam is wrong! u have no right to say this!!! WHO R U? are u the GOD?? u can never consider other people wrong when u urself are wrong! muslims are right and are following the right path ... its YOU PPL who are wrong and on the WRONG path!!! when u will use your common sense u will urself come to know that how much true the religion islam is!! dont u ever think that who made this worls these trees this sky this eart these flowers these animals ans most of all dont u ever think that who made U!!!! did u made urself or one of ur friends made u!!! did they designed ur nose ur eyes ur features!!! no ordinary man can do this?! then how come u can say that there is no GOD! u say jesus the son of GOD!!!! this is completely wrong! first go read and study about the right religion and then come and consider islam the wrong religion!!! u have no right to consider it wrong when u urself are wrong!!!!!


Bob Goldstein - 1/21/2004

Yes Mr Free, Muslim is right, it is still not too late to repent now and convert to Judaism.
L'Shanah Tovah!


Muslim - 1/21/2004

Peace be upon you.

You cannot judge a true Muslim by the mean "Muslims" you've encountered.
Islam is not only a religion, but it'sa way of life which promotes peace and acceptance of other races and religion. It teaches to be humble, respect people and etc etc. If you study Islam in depth, you'll be convinced that this is the truth.

The Muslims you've encountered with may be mean to you, well that's because they are not knowledgable enough. You can't label all Muslims based on some rotten eggs.

It's like driving a brand new luxurious car which has all the complete safety features. But if the driver is reckless or a drunkard, the car will surely meet with an accident. And you blame it on the driver, you can't blame it on the car. Similarly to Islam, a perfect religion. If a Muslim doesn't behave how he should actually behave, you can't say the relgion is wrong!


Muslim - 1/21/2004

tevie Free....you are damn right. You are a complete idiot by saying all those rubbish.
But it's stillnot too late to reprent and find out the truth.


Claire J. - 1/12/2004

I found your comment very enlightening. You seem very intelligent. Thank you.


Ifrah - 1/11/2004

I learned alot of things about this website that helped me through my project


hadi madani - 1/5/2004

I am friom Iran .
I need information about history of shiite in india .
and i need information abuot CHashtieh in india .
thanks a lot
bye


Joe - 12/19/2003

Today I learned 2+2=4


Iri - 12/17/2003

I choose to respond to one thing, which seems the least political to me, also as this is the least time consuming to consider - I don't have much time to linger on this at the moment: spelling properly shows that you care (and respect) enough.


pS - 12/15/2003

I enjoy our Islamic history. I believe the west must learn about this history. This would be good. It would show the world that not all the Muslims sypmpathize with Osama. I believe that Osama in saying that the west is tasting what we have tasted for years is wrong. I dont understand his hatered. Learn the ways of others and try to influence them. Do not go ranting and raving and take lives with your foolishness. We must also learn from the west. We must learn love, compassion for all men, and learn the ways of Jesus. This is the only way we can come to a middle land, and that is by learning.


Bonnie - 12/10/2003

Tatiana, I have a few questions, will you answer them?

How did you know they were Muslim?

And, have the only people who have been mean to you in your whole life, been these Muslims you talk about?

Tatiana if the answer to that last question was no, that there have been other people (non-Muslim)who have been mean to you, I would ask you one final question.

What religion/ethnicity were the others?


Just a comment, the split in the Islamic religion, is by no means the only religious split based on 1,2, or 3 fundamental, or even minute differing and irreconcilable points of disagreement. And most certainly not the most violent in history either. The split means little on a day to day basis, the Shi'ite community is the majority in Iraq, has been the majority with some 15-20% more people than the Kurds and Arab Sunnai put together, and there has been no major violence between parties there, excluding the Shi'ite attempt against Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party rule shortly after the Gulf War, which was not against the Sunnai community, but against Hussein.

However, while it means little in the day to day of things, it means quite a bit more when you consider the formation of a new government, with equal representation and equal balance of power, a shared goal for the benefit of all Iraqi people, and a shift of power to the Shi'ites away from typical Sunni control, since Shi'ites make up the majority of Iraq's populace.

The Shi'ite have already shown themselves weak, and their majority participation in a new government, will surely spell disaster, since without continued protection and intervention by the US, Iraq will be at the mercy of those much stronger than it's proposed new government.

Despite their intentions, history proves their weakness, and I doubt the US is going to play protector for Iraq without reparation, control, and even with that, not indefinitely.

Sunni control would most likely lead to either the US having to firmly take control of the new Iraqi government to quash any attempt by the Iraqi people to create an Islamic state, the backlash of such a suppression by the US would be felt in world opinion, Muslim opinion (worldwide, which is already not favorable, to be nice about it) and the violence it will assure against US targets in retribution for what will surely look like a direct attack against Islam itself.

Or, quite possibly, the Sunni will wait for the US to let it's grip slack, and when it has packed up it's military and left, choose for themselves how they will run Iraq. Insha' Allah.

Just my opinion, nothing more.


tatiana micheals - 11/18/2003

every muslim that i know is mean to me and i don't like it. i think they are sunni muslims.there is something in common with the muslims sunni and shiite, they belive in one god, Allah.


Harry Wang - 11/2/2003

SHIITES ARE TITE


martin jonson - 10/30/2003

i dont like osama he isnt nice i am hungry and stoned


kuonno ponno - 10/28/2003

i think they use to be so mean back in the day. Over in islam i guess it was kind of cool, but then they were very rude im glad i live here now because i get so many new opened options for what i want to do eith my life. that s all.


Devil Advocate - 10/26/2003

Saddam and Osama think that they are right in what they are doing


Cassidy - 10/2/2003

ya i definatley need facts about how the Sunni and Shiite Muslims formed and their differences..i'm in the same class as the other people and i need help by Tuesday..please help if you can?


samantha - 10/2/2003

dude, if they chopped your fingers off...how are you typing?


Amber - 10/2/2003

I need some help. I dont understand this article at all. I have to do an essay that includes improtant facts about the formation of the Sunni and the Shiite Muslims and how their differences affect our world today. Its due really soon. Please help!!


Samantha - 10/2/2003

yah im bored here at school doing a project about this crap


Kevin C - 9/27/2003

First off I will aplogize for any possible spelling errors in my comments.

I find it hard to believe sometimes that America is what it was first intended in 1776. With all this useless bickering about who spelled what wrong how are we proving which one of us is more intelligent over the other and better yet why does any of that matter. We can all see that ,as intelligent people we are, at least enough to voice our opinions good or bad. As for America when was the last time we gathered as a nation to stand for anything. I recall from my readings of history that we once stood together for things like equallity, freedoms of rights and speech or religion. I think that Stevie Free's comments might be antagonistic but shed some dark facet of truth we as american's do hold this opinion over all. Unless the polls that they had were infact false, most of America supported the war...hmmm. Which brings another point how is it that no one questions our leaders actions? what if they lie? Can we prove it? Would it matter? is there more to the coincidence that it took more money than any other presidency for Bushes election (sorry court appointment) and most of all his major contributers went bankrupt.Also as they claim banckuptcy ,judges are being appointed to permanent Suprieme Court seats which will give lean to these businesses, but to top it off all people in place to investigate such possible wrong doings have dirty hands in this affair. So now they question is will we come together to demand answers for the obvious mishandlement of Iraq and will Americans now join hands as voters and take back our nation? We should welcome all comments good or bad for this is a nation of freedoms. As for me If Stevie Free is for real, than it is because of his comments that I disagree and without that someone might have assumed I was with him.


Bob - 9/5/2003

Including yours. What's the story about living in a glass house?


Tom - 9/5/2003

I did not review one entry without grammar or spelling mistake. Who is the audience here?


Bob - 9/5/2003

It wasn't just any old word. It was IGNORANT. She was accusing someone of being ignorant. Another word comes to mind here: irony. Look that one up.


Stevie Free - 8/31/2003

Re: I'm guessing your just joking around but even if you are your comments only fuel the fire and leed to more innocent deaths muslim and christian alike.

You are correct. My earlier comments were reflective of some very, very poor judgement on my part. Thank for your very informative and balanced comments. I would hope that if I ever needed a hand from a muslim, I would accept (even if I really do not deserve their pity) it.


Stevie Free - 8/31/2003

You are totally right on. I am a misogynistic simpleton. Regrettably, I do represent the dark filthy underbelly of American life. My attitude is a disgrace to our nation. I am a scourge on this planet.


Stevie Free - 8/31/2003

You are very correct. I am a total ignorant idiot! I wish the world had much less people like me. I am a scourge on this planet.


Stevie Free - 8/31/2003

You are absolutly correct! Thank you very much for your comments. I was totally lacking sesativity in my earlier commentary.


Stevie Free - 8/31/2003

You are one-hundred percent correct!! I am a complete loser, for havin made my earlier remarks.


Stevie Free - 8/31/2003

I am a totally complete blithering idiot. Please forgive my earlier utterly ridiculous comments. I was intoxicated with drugs at the time. I am very sad to hear the news of Najaf and sincerly hope that the people directly responsible for this terrible act are brought to justic under islamic law. God is Great!! Muhammad is his prophet. Peace be upon him.


Stevie Free - 8/31/2003

I am a totally complete blithering idiot. Please forgive my earlier utterly ridiculous comments. I was intoxicated with drugs at the time. I am very sad to hear the news of Najaf and sincerly hope that the people directly responsible for this terrible act are brought to justic under islamic law. God is Great!! Muhammad is his prophet. Peace be upon him.
Click here


Stevie Free - 8/31/2003

I am a totally complete blithering idiot. Please forgive my earlier utterly ridiculous comments. I was intoxicated with drugs at the time. I am very sad to hear the news of Najaf and sincerly hope that the people directly responsible for this terrible act are brought to justic under islamic law. God is Great!! Muhammad is his prophet. Peace be upon him.


Stevie Free - 8/31/2003

I am a totally complete blithering idiot. Please forgive my earlier utterly ridiculous comments. I was intoxicated with drugs at the time. I am very sad to hear the news of Najaf and sincerly hope that the people directly responsible for this terrible act are brought to justic under islamic law. God is Great!! Muhammad is his prophet. Peace be upon him.


Stevie Free - 8/31/2003

I am a totally ignorant loser. My earlier comments were totally lacking in any sensativity to the issues. Please sterlize me so that my genes do not spead any farther. The children I have produced with my mom, sisters, and cousins all have way too many extra ears and fingers. God is Great!!


Stevie Free - 8/31/2003

I am a complete blithering idiot. Please forgive my earlier utterly ridiculous comments. I was intoxicated with drugs at the time. I am very sad to hear the news of Najaf and sincerly hope that the people directly responsible for this terrible act are brought to justic under islamic law.


George W. Bush - 8/30/2003

HEY STEVIE, YOU ARE DISGRACE TO MY NATION, AND MY REPUBLICAN PARTY OK. YOU ARE MY ENEMY, YOU ARE UNDERMINING MY LEADERSHIP. YOU ARE MORE STUPID AND IGNORANT THAN ME. I WAS LIED TO BY THE SADDAM OPPOSITION WHO WANTED ME TO ATTACK IRAQ, SO THEY CAN BE FREE BUT ANY WAY WHAT EVER HAPPEN IS ALL READY HAPPEN. ONE THING I AM REQUESTING MY FELLOW AMERICAN PEOPLE IS PLEASE PLEASE, TURN IN THAT IDIOT STEVIE FREE TO YOUR LOCAL FBI OFFICE. WHO EVER TURN IN STEVIE FREE WILL GET $25,000,000. I AM ANNOUNCING NOW THAT THERE IS $25 MILLION ON HEAD OF IDIOT STEVIE FREE. OH LET ME SAY ONE MORE THING, ALL THOSE RIGHT WING FANATICS IN MY REPUBLICAN PARTY SUCH AS REV. GERRY FOLWELL AND PAT REPORTSON SHOULD GET OUT OF MY PARTY OR I WILL SEND YOU JOHN ASHCROFT. MAY GOD BLESS AMERICA.


Jeremy - 8/30/2003

Be sure to realize that spelling ability has no correlation whatsoever to intelligence or knowledge before you criticize someone for misspelling a word in their comments. The web is chock full of misspellings, that is no grounds for discounting their authors.


Bob - 8/25/2003

Make sure you can spell the word "ignorent" before you accuse someone of sounding so.


Lisa - 7/6/2003

Religion is a kind of belief system. It has rules and regulations that the followers must follow. Most of the religion restrict its follower to do bad things and encorage them to do goods.The religion itself is not corrupt, its the people who made it like that. Well, not all religion are perfect...We've seen people hurting themselves by means of purification. That seems terrify and wrong, but not to those people. My point is try to learn about others b4 u jugde them. Its okay to jugde people by their personality, we all do that! try not to be so obsess. People are human being, we are not born evil!


alex - 7/6/2003


try to learn 'bout other religion... u are so bias! and ignorant!


Tim - 7/4/2003

Steviefree you are anything but free you are condemnd by the words you speak, repent and receive freedom and then stevie will truelly be free... otherwise carry on and find out the hard way.


rob key - 7/3/2003

my family was killed by some nazis and they cut off my fingers and put me on disply. please help


mike - 6/27/2003

It is evident that you have studied both religions in depth. But perhaps you should study a dictionary for a change.


Demon truth - 6/25/2003

I'm guessing your just joking around but even if you are your comments only fuel the fire and leed to more innocent deaths muslim and christian alike.

I am not a muslim or a christian but have studied both faiths in detail and what I understand of the Islamic faith is that they are essentially a peaceful race, we in the western world have very short memories about our own histories and the numerous atrocities we committed, but we evolved with out the help of any other civilisation, why cant the Islamic countries be allowed to do the same? why do we feel the need to flood the world with Macdonalds, KFC, Starbucks, strip joints, drugs, liquer stores on every other street corner, prostitutes.....the list goes on and on. Given the choice we wouldn't want bums, alcoholics, junkies and drug dealers hanging round our streets would we???? let these countries evolve at their own pace otherwise we will be killing each other for many more years. fix the palestine and US backed isreal problem and we are half way to making the world a much better place :o)

Peace be upon all mankind.....even you Stevie - cos if you or a member of your family were dying and the only person tha could help was a muslim you would not refuse their help!!!

DX


halimo abdi - 5/22/2003

this is going to be a great project that will teach a lot about between the sunni and the shiites


Jessica - 5/13/2003

Do you know how ignorent you sound?? And i bet you are. Your comments were very uncalled for and disrespectful. Just stop talking if you know nothing about the Muslim religion at all.


DolceAmara - 5/9/2003

You represent the dark underbelly of American life. Your attitude is a disgrace to our nation, you misogynistic simpleton.


butch - 5/2/2003

Yes, It has always been explicated that Christians must understand Muslims. And we as Christians try with our might to send and enact messages and symbols of our (the Christian's) sincere effort to be open and "soft."
But we fail to look and raise the issue of their doctrine or maybe perpectives, that anyone or any nation or country that is not Muslim is considered an enemy. And with this enemy, the Muslim is at war. Now who can take away that concept from their thoughts? They have been at war with the Christians. And they are at war until now, all over the world. Hunting, Christians without regards to justice, persecuting and killing.
Yet, the Christians, the morning papers, and the boob tube do gooders does not seem to take notice and stand against these crimes. Is the Christian separating now heinous crime, such as murders in the name of religion from gospel presentation? Or are we going to acquit a relious murderer so that we can evangelize the same person?
Just what can the billions of Christians do so that they can protect their own brotheren?


AC - 5/1/2003

the article didn't say mohammad established two branches

it says there are two branches *of the religion he founded*

i.e. he founded the religion; now there are two branches


Barbara - 4/2/2003

My understanding is that the Sunni believe in the complete control of everyone who exists in the realm of their power. Whether it be the clothes they wear, or the god they believe in. Somewhat like the USSR used to be. No one nation corrupted any other nation. God gave each individual a brain. He then taught us how to us it. Perhaps the Sunni have failed to recognize this. bk


Angiee - 3/21/2003

You should watch watch you say. Comments like that are what make the Arab world weary of America. Take John Phillip's advise and learn more about the culture before you suggest killing and raping people.


Stevie Free - 2/13/2003

Kick em all out of the US and don't let anymore of these sick bastards to even visit our country; take their oil, and screw their women


Stevie Free - 2/13/2003

Who cares ? we should nuke em all and rid the world of their fanaticism..and take ALL their oil and Women.


Wisdom - 1/26/2003

It is wrong and illogical to be religious in any way.


ahmed - 12/17/2002

The sunni and shitte sects appeared after the death of Muhammad because of a political disagrement of who should have been the successor. Muhammad did nothing at all to form these two groups. Before is death, there were no sects at all. It is wrong and illogical to say that he willfully established two different groups.


Kenny - 11/20/2002

AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!


John Philips - 9/10/2002

Somehow the first paragraph got left off this. Let me try to reconstruct it. Something like this: There were other Caliphates besides the Ottoman one. Furthermore Osama bin Ladin's al-Qa'ida practices a form of Wahhabism, a Sunni sect which revolted against the allegedly corrupt Ottoman Caliph's "protection" of Mecca and Medina, just as bin Ladin himself revolted against American protection of the Saudi regime, which espouses a different form of Wahhabism. As sects grow larger and older, and after their founders pass away, they tend to fall apart into competing groups. The complexity of Islam, even though it is the youngest of the great world religions, is far more than could be dealt with in a short op-ed piece on the Internet.


John Philips - 9/10/2002

There were other Caliphates besides the Ottoman one, even in the 1920s, although the Ottoman Empire's collapse was traumatic. Furthermore, Osama bin Ladin's al-Qa'ida practices a form of Wahhabism, which revolted against the Ottoman "protection" of Mecca and Medina, just as bin Ladin is revolting against the American protection of the Saudi regime, also practicing a form of Wahhabism. As sects get bigger and their founders die, so they divide and divide, as happened so long ago to Islam in general. So the situation in the Muslim world is far more complicated than can be explained in a little op-ed piece on the Internet.

However, there is a lot of important truth here that we in the non-Muslim world would do well to remember. When someone actually proposes in the US media, without a hint of irony, that we should invade the Muslim world, kill their leaders and try to convert them to western ideologies, someone in Europe should point out that they went there, did that, and that that is now a very big part of the problem. Media mouthpieces need to find out what is going on before they mouth off. Islam is not some violent sect, but a very complex religious phenomenon. We all need to learn more about it.

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