George Mason University's
History News Network
Historians vs. George W. Bush
By Robert S. McElvaine

Mr. McElvaine teaches history at Millsaps College. He is the author of EVE'S SEED: BIOLOGY, THE SEXES AND THE COURSE OF HISTORY (McGraw-Hill).

 

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Editor's Note 12-5-05: This article was first published 19 months ago. It was referred to in an article by Richard Reeves on Dec. 2, attracting wide notice. Readers are encouraged to post fresh comments by clicking on the link at the bottom of this page. (FYI: To see the graphics displayed on this page in a larger format click here.)

Although his approval ratings have slipped somewhat in recent weeks, President George W. Bush still enjoys the overall support of nearly half of the American people. He does not, however, fare nearly so well among professional historians.

A recent informal, unscientific survey of historians conducted at my suggestion by George Mason University’s History News Network found that eight in ten historians responding rate the current presidency an overall failure.

Of 415 historians who expressed a view of President Bush’s administration to this point as a success or failure, 338 classified it as a failure and 77 as a success. (Moreover, it seems likely that at least eight of those who said it is a success were being sarcastic, since seven said Bush’s presidency is only the best since Clinton’s and one named Millard Fillmore.) Twelve percent of all the historians who responded rate the current presidency the worst in all of American history, not too far behind the 19 percent who see it at this point as an overall success.

Among the cautions that must be raised about the survey is just what “success” means. Some of the historians rightly pointed out that it would be hard to argue that the Bush presidency has not so far been a political success—or, for that matter that President Bush has not been remarkably successful in achieving his objectives in Congress. But those meanings of success are by no means incompatible with the assessment that the Bush presidency is a disaster. “His presidency has been remarkably successful,” one historian declared, “in its pursuit of disastrous policies.” “I think the Bush administration has been quite successful in achieving its political objectives,” another commented, “which makes it a disaster for us.”

Additionally, it is, of course, as one respondent rightly noted, “way too early to make a valid comparison (we need another 50 years).” And such an informal survey is plainly not scientifically reliable. Yet the results are so overwhelming and so different from the perceptions of the general public that an attempt to explain and assess their reactions merits our attention. It may be, as one pro-Bush historian said in his or her written response to the poll, “I suspect that this poll will tell us nothing about President Bush’s performance vis-à-vis his peer group, but may confirm what we already know about the current crop of history professors.” The liberal-left proclivities of much of the academic world are well documented, and some observers will dismiss the findings as the mere rantings of a disaffected professoriate. “If historians were the only voters,” another pro-Bush historian noted, “Mr. Gore would have carried 50 states.” It is plain that many liberal academics have the same visceral reaction against the second President Bush that many conservatives did against his immediate predecessor.

Yet it seems clear that a similar survey taken during the presidency of Bush’s father would not have yielded results nearly as condemnatory. And, for all the distaste liberal historians had for Ronald Reagan, relatively few would have rated his administration as worse than that of Richard Nixon. Yet today 57 percent of all the historians who participated in the survey (and 70 percent of those who see the Bush presidency as a failure) either name someone prior to Nixon or say that Bush’s presidency is the worst ever, meaning that they rate it as worse than the two presidencies in the past half century that liberals have most loved to hate, those of Nixon and Reagan. One who made the comparison with Nixon explicit wrote, “Indeed, Bush puts Nixon into a more favorable light. He has trashed the image and reputation of the United States throughout the world; he has offended many of our previously close allies; he has burdened future generations with incredible debt; he has created an unnecessary war to further his domestic political objectives; he has suborned the civil rights of our citizens; he has destroyed previous environmental efforts by government in favor of his coterie of exploiters; he has surrounded himself with a cabal ideological adventurers . . . .”

Why should the views of historians on the current president matter?

I do not share the view of another respondent that “until we have gained access to the archival record of this president, we [historians] are no better at evaluating it than any other voter.” Academic historians, no matter their ideological bias, have some expertise in assessing what makes for a successful or unsuccessful presidency; we have a long-term perspective in which to view the actions of a current chief executive. Accordingly, the depth of the negative assessment that so many historians make of George W. Bush is something of which the public should be aware. Their comments make clear that such historians would readily agree with conclusion that then-Democratic presidential hopeful Richard Gephardt pronounced a few months ago: the presidency of George W. Bush is “a miserable failure.”

The past presidencies most commonly linked with the current administration include all of those that are usually rated as the worst in the nation’s history: Nixon, Harding, Hoover, Buchanan, Coolidge, Andrew Johnson, Grant, and McKinley. The only president who appeared prominently on both the favorable and unfavorable lists was Ronald Reagan. Forty-seven historians said Bush is the best president since Reagan, while 38 said he is the worst since Reagan. Almost all of the historians who rate the Bush presidency a success are Reagan admirers. Indeed, no other president (leaving aside the presumably mostly tongue-in-cheek mentions of Clinton) was named by more than four of the historians who took a favorable view of the current presidency.

Ronald Reagan clearly has become the sort of polarizing figure that Franklin Roosevelt was for an earlier generation—or, perhaps a better way to understand the phenomenon is that Reagan has become the personification of the pole opposite to Roosevelt. That polarization is evident in historians’ evaluations of George W. Bush’s presidency. “If one believes Bush is a ‘good’ president (or great),” one poll respondent noted, he or she “would necessarily also believe Reagan to be a pretty good president.” They also tend to despise Roosevelt. “There is no indication,” one historian said of Bush, “that he has advisors who are closet communist traitors as FDR had. Based on his record to date, history is likely to judge him as one of America’s greatest presidents, in the tradition of Washington and Lincoln.”

The thought that anyone could rate the incumbent president with Washington and Lincoln is enough to induce apoplexy in a substantial majority of historians. Among the many offenses they enumerate in their indictment of Bush is that he is, as one of them put it, “well on his way to destroying the entire (and entirely successful) structures of international cooperation and regulated, humane capitalism and social welfare that have been built up since the early 1930s.” “Bush is now in a position,” Another historian said, “to ‘roll back the New Deal,’ guided by Tom DeLay.”

Several charges against the Bush administration arose repeatedly in the comments of historians who responded to the survey. Among them were: the doctrine of pre-emptive war, crony capitalism/being “completely in bed with certain corporate interests,” bankruptcy/fiscal irresponsibility, military adventurism, trampling of civil liberties, and anti-environmental policies.

***

The reasons stated by some of the historians for their choice of the presidency that they believe Bush’s to be the worst since are worth repeating. The following are representative examples for each of the presidents named most frequently:

REAGAN: “I think the presidency of George W. Bush has been generally a failure and I consider his presidency so far to have been the most disastrous since that of Ronald Reagan--because of the unconscionable military aggression and spending (especially the Iraq War), the damage done to the welfare of the poor while the corporate rich get richer, and the backwards religious fundamentalism permeating this administration. I strongly disliked and distrusted Reagan and think that George W. is even worse.”

NIXON: “Actually, I think [Bush’s] presidency may exceed the disaster that was Nixon. He has systematically lied to the American public about almost every policy that his administration promotes.” Bush uses “doublespeak” to “dress up policies that condone or aid attacks by polluters and exploiters of the environment . . . with names like the ‘Forest Restoration Act’ (which encourages the cutting down of forests).”

HOOVER: “I would say GW is our worst president since Herbert Hoover. He is moving to bankrupt the federal government on the eve of the retirement of the baby boom generation, and he has brought America’s reputation in the world to its lowest point in the entire history of the United States.”

COOLIDGE: “I think his presidency has been an unmitigated disaster for the environment, for international relations, for health care, and for working Americans. He’s on a par with Coolidge!”

HARDING: “Oil, money and politics again combine in ways not flattering to the integrity of the office. Both men also have a tendency to mangle the English language yet get their points across to ordinary Americans. [Yet] the comparison does Harding something of a disservice.”

McKINLEY: “Bush is perhaps the first president [since McKinley] to be entirely in the ‘hip pocket’ of big business, engage in major external conquest for reasons other than national security, AND be the puppet of his political handler. McKinley had Mark Hanna; Bush has Karl Rove. No wonder McKinley is Rove’s favorite historical president (precedent?).”

GRANT: “He ranks with U.S. Grant as the worst. His oil interests and Cheney’s corporate Haliburton contracts smack of the same corruption found under Grant.”

“While Grant did serve in the army (more than once), Bush went AWOL from the National Guard. That means that Grant is automatically more honest than Bush, since Grant did not send people into places that he himself consciously avoided. . . . Grant did not attempt to invade another country without a declaration of war; Bush thinks that his powers in this respect are unlimited.”

ANDREW JOHNSON: “I consider his presidency so far to have been the most disastrous since that of Andrew Johnson. It has been a sellout of fundamental democratic (and Republican) principles. There are many examples, but the most recent would be his successful efforts to insert provisions in spending bills which directly controvert measures voted down by both houses of Congress.”

BUCHANAN: “Buchanan can be said to have made the Civil War inevitable or to have made the war last longer by his pusillanimity or, possibly, treason.” “Buchanan allowed a war to evolve, but that war addressed a real set of national issues. Mr. Bush started a war . . . for what reason?”

***

EVER: The second most common response from historians, trailing only Nixon, was that the current presidency is the worst in American history. A few examples will serve to provide the flavor of such condemnations. “Although previous presidents have led the nation into ill-advised wars, no predecessor managed to turn America into an unprovoked aggressor. No predecessor so thoroughly managed to confirm the impressions of those who already hated America. No predecessor so effectively convinced such a wide range of world opinion that America is an imperialist threat to world peace. I don 't think that you can do much worse than that.”

“Bush is horrendous; there is no comparison with previous presidents, most of whom have been bad.”

“He is blatantly a puppet for corporate interests, who care only about their own greed and have no sense of civic responsibility or community service. He lies, constantly and often, seemingly without control, and he lied about his invasion into a sovereign country, again for corporate interests; many people have died and been maimed, and that has been lied about too. He grandstands and mugs in a shameful manner, befitting a snake oil salesman, not a statesman. He does not think, process, or speak well, and is emotionally immature due to, among other things, his lack of recovery from substance abuse. The term is "dry drunk". He is an abject embarrassment/pariah overseas; the rest of the world hates him . . . . . He is, by far, the most irresponsible, unethical, inexcusable occupant of our formerly highest office in the land that there has ever been.”

“George W. Bush's presidency is the pernicious enemy of American freedom, compassion, and community; of world peace; and of life itself as it has evolved for millennia on large sections of the planet. The worst president ever? Let history judge him.”

“This president is unique in his failures.”

And then there was this split ballot, comparing the George W. Bush presidencies failures in distinct areas. The George W. Bush presidency is the worst since:

“In terms of economic damage, Reagan.

In terms of imperialism, T Roosevelt.

In terms of dishonesty in government, Nixon.

In terms of affable incompetence, Harding.

In terms of corruption, Grant.

In terms of general lassitude and cluelessness, Coolidge.

In terms of personal dishonesty, Clinton.

In terms of religious arrogance, Wilson.”

***

My own answer to the question was based on astonishment that so many people still support a president who has:

  • Presided over the loss of approximately three million American jobs in his first two-and-a-half years in office, the worst record since Herbert Hoover.
  • Overseen an economy in which the stock market suffered its worst decline in the first two years of any administration since Hoover’s.
  • Taken, in the wake of the terrorist attacks two years ago, the greatest worldwide outpouring of goodwill the United States has enjoyed at least since World War II and squandered it by insisting on pursuing a foolish go-it-almost-alone invasion of Iraq, thereby transforming almost universal support for the United States into worldwide condemnation. (One historian made this point particularly well: “After inadvertently gaining the sympathies of the world 's citizens when terrorists attacked New York and Washington, Bush has deliberately turned the country into the most hated in the world by a policy of breaking all major international agreements, declaring it our right to invade any country that we wish, proving that he’ll manipulate facts to justify anything he wishes to do, and bull-headedly charging into a quagmire.”)
  • Misled (to use the most charitable word and interpretation) the American public about weapons of mass destruction and supposed ties to Al Qaeda in Iraq and so into a war that has plainly (and entirely predictably) made us less secure, caused a boom in the recruitment of terrorists, is killing American military personnel needlessly, and is threatening to suck up all our available military forces and be a bottomless pit for the money of American taxpayers for years to come.
  • Failed to follow through in Afghanistan, where the Taliban and Al Qaeda are regrouping, once more increasing the threat to our people.
  • Insulted and ridiculed other nations and international organizations and now has to go, hat in hand, to those nations and organizations begging for their assistance.
  • Completely miscalculated or failed to plan for the personnel and monetary needs in Iraq after the war, so that he sought and obtained an $87 billion appropriation for Iraq, a sizable chunk of which is going, without competitive bidding to Haliburton, the company formerly headed by his vice president.
  • Inherited an annual federal budget surplus of $230 billion and transformed it into a $500+ billion deficit in less than three years. This negative turnaround of three-quarters of a trillion dollars is totally without precedent in our history. The ballooning deficit for fiscal 2004 is rapidly approaching twice the dollar size of the previous record deficit, $290 billion, set in 1992, the last year of the administration of President Bush’s father and, at almost 5 percent of GDP, is closing in on the percentage record set by Ronald Reagan in 1986.
  • Cut taxes three times, sharply reducing the burden on the rich, reclassified money obtained through stock ownership as more deserving than money earned through work. The idea that dividend income should not be taxed—what might accurately be termed the unearned income tax credit—can be stated succinctly: “If you had to work for your money, we’ll tax it; if you didn’t have to work for it, you can keep it all.”
  • Severely curtailed the very American freedoms that our military people are supposed to be fighting to defend. (“The Patriot Act,” one of the historians noted, “is the worst since the Alien and Sedition Acts under John Adams.”)
  • Called upon American armed service people, including Reserve forces, to sacrifice for ever-lengthening tours of duty in a hostile and dangerous environment while he rewards the rich at home with lower taxes and legislative giveaways and gives lucrative no-bid contracts to American corporations linked with the administration.
  • Given an opportunity to begin to change the consumption-oriented values of the nation after September 11, 2001, when people were prepared to make a sacrifice for the common good, called instead of Americans to ‘sacrifice’ by going out and buying things.
  • Proclaimed himself to be a conservative while maintaining that big government should be able to run roughshod over the Bill of Rights, and that the government must have all sorts of secrets from the people, but the people can be allowed no privacy from the government. (As one of the historians said, “this is not a conservative administration; it is a reckless and arrogant one, beholden to a mix of right-wing ideologues, neo-con fanatics, and social Darwinian elitists.”)

My assessment is that George W. Bush’s record on running up debt to burden our children is the worst since Ronald Reagan; his record on government surveillance of citizens is the worst since Richard Nixon; his record on foreign-military policy has gotten us into the worst foreign mess we’ve been in since Lyndon Johnson sank us into Vietnam; his economic record is the worst since Herbert Hoover; his record of tax favoritism for the rich is the worst since Calvin Coolidge; his record of trampling on civil liberties is the worst since Woodrow Wilson. How far back in our history would we need to go to find a presidency as disastrous for this country as that of George W. Bush has been thus far? My own vote went to the administration of James Buchanan, who warmed the president’s chair while the union disintegrated in 1860-61.

Who has been the biggest beneficiary of the horrible terrorism that struck our nation in September of 2001? The answer to that question should be obvious to anyone who considers where the popularity ratings and reelection prospects of a president with the record outlined above would be had he not been able to wrap himself in the flag, take advantage of the American people’s patriotism, and make himself synonymous with “the United States of America” for the past two years.

That abuse of the patriotism and trust of the American people is even worse than everything else this president has done and that fact alone might be sufficient to explain the depth of the hostility with which so many historians view George W. Bush. Contrary to the conservative stereotype of academics as anti-American, the reasons that many historians cited for seeing the Bush presidency as a disaster revolve around their perception that he is undermining traditional American practices and values. As one patriotic historian put it, “I think his presidency has been the worst disaster to hit the United States and is bringing our beloved country to financial, economic, and social disaster.”

Some voters may judge such assessments to be wrong, but they are assessments informed by historical knowledge and the electorate ought to have them available to take into consideration during this election year.

Author: 
Robert S. McElvaine
Bio: 

Mr. McElvaine teaches history at Millsaps College. He is the author of EVE'S SEED: BIOLOGY, THE SEXES AND THE COURSE OF HISTORY (McGraw-Hill).

 

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Bush's attempt to bury history

This wide-ranging analysis is interesting but largely descriptive rather than analytical. In particular, this is an instance where (as another HNN article this week puts it ) the “intersection” of the “personal” and the “historical” is critical to understanding what is going on.

Unlike many politicians whose publicly stated goals are more dramatic than their actions, Bush's tongue-twisted "affability" pales compared to his radical and unAmerican actions. Career diplomats and career military officers of all political persuasions are upset at his Administration’s deep disregard for their long-established knowledge and experience. Accomplished business leaders are uneasy with the President's cavalier attitude towards fiscal prudence and his hypocritical weakening of free trade policies. Scientists are outraged at his deliberate attempts to slash science funding and warp future research towards pre-formed poll-driven unscientific conclusions.

Historians are also not immune from personal outrage at unprecedented and unwarranted governmental attacks on their profession:

In November of 2001, George W. Bush "issued an executive order...virtually gutting the 1978 Presidential Records Act....In essence Bush was repealing an act of Congress and imposing a new law by executive fiat...[As a result]... presidential scholarship as it now exists will largely end. As the Association of American Libraries has noted, many of the best-known works about the American presidency would not have been possible had Bush’s order been in effect...Bush and Cheney assumed office planning to take total and absolute control of executive branch information. They will decide what the public should know and when, if ever.”

- John W. Dean, “Worse than Watergate” pp. 90-92.

I disagree.

Several queries:

You state that the Patriot Act curtails basic American freedoms. How? Have you read this act? Is having a Federal Judge sign off on a warrant to search Library records a violation of basic freedoms? HOw? Indeed, have any such records been searched? Answer, NO. Details please.

Should a Nation-State allow its preceived security to be determined by a secondary party. The incompetence and fraud recently exposed in several UN programs beg the question. Should the US be held to account by the UN Commission of Human Rights headed by a Syria? If so why?

New information on the World Bank evidences massive fraud/incompetence in the hundred of billions of dollars (kind of like the US deficit criticised above). Is this the type of 'International Organization' we are supposed to better fund and support? Better yet, should the UN Oil for Food Scandal be examined as closely as the Iraq prison scandal. If not, why not, if so, in what regard?

Where has the administration run "roughnshod" over the Bill of Rights?

Last but not least, who in their right mind, could expect anybody, even the President of the United States, to "...change the consumption-oriented values of the nation after September 11, 2001...". Please. The only thing most Americans were thinking after 9/11 was returning the favor, not whether our consumer lifestyle upset our enemies. Indeed, even the 'rotten' economy brought on by the evil "BU$H" couldn't stop the spending spurring the present economy.

Even though the G.W.Bush presidency is not yet over, historians are ready to proclaim it a failure. So be it. I am glad though, that Historians are all agreed on the wonders of the Carter administration, the Clinton administration, and the Gore administration, (or how much better he would have been rather than the imbecile now in the White House), along with the evils of, well, anybody elected on the Republican ballot.

Final question: How is G.W.Bush undermining basic American values, which is easy to say. Proof is a different matter. Which values have been undermined, directly? Indirectly? What is the "Basic American" value response to a suicide attack? Which kills 3000 souls? Who determines 'basic American Values'?

Need some legal background?

First...how many innocent souls has the US killed in its terror attacks in Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Haiti, Cuba, El Salvador, etc? This is not to justify or defend any terror in any way, but merely to point out the absurdity in your position...violence does not justify violence...and there is no self defense argument under any credible legal standard. As for your legal and value questions, the Bush administration has undermined the Constitution and rule of law more than almost any administration in history. More on this in a minute.

The laughable comment on the UN COmmission of Human Rights - Syria has as much right to sit on the panel as the US. I find it highly amusing that anyone can condemn any nation for human rights failures and claim that the US has any right to speak on such an issue. It is hypocrisy at its worst. You are correct to claim that nations such as Syria have no right to be sitting on the HRC, but neither do the US or Israel. The problem is the basic nation-state philosophy of the UN and the fact that national self interest is used to determine international affairs, leading to those with the most power controlling the global community...the antithesis of how the UN is supposed to function. The vetoes of the Security Council have directly led to a greater problem by allowing the P5, particularly the US, to dictate their own self interests as the interests of the international community, with disatrous results. By the way...what about Security Council Resolution 1483...which the US pushed for vehemently...which reinforces the Geneva Conventions as well as the sovereignty of the Iraqi people? Kind of interesting we will use it when we need an additional "legal justification" but will ignore it otherwise.

To raise the issue...you fail to discuss the blatant war crimes under both international and US law that have been committed by the US military and are a result of policies and orders goven from high up the chain of command. War crimes charges cannot be charged against anyone unless you are willing to hold yourself to the same standards. or would you rather prefer "might makes right" reasoning, where he who has the guns makes the law and determines when it applies? If so...welcome to Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and every other oppressive regime that ever ruled on this planet...including the current US regime.

The Patriot Act - http://www.independent.org/tii/forums/031113ipfTrans.html
I would also encourage you to read anything written by Prof. David Cole on the subject, as he is probably the foremost authority on the dangers of the Patriot Act and has defended many individuals throughout the US held on draconian charges. Courts from California to New York have declared unconstitutional several parts of the act, and there are hundreds of cities that are standing up against its provisions. The Patriot Act brings the US closer to the Soviet Union than ever before. The Beatles tune "Back in the USSR" comes to mind.

As for your comment on the Administration running "roughshod" I think you may have a point since the First, Fourth, Fifth and Eighth Amendments were basically gone before Bush took office...he has just been blatant about the fact that they simply do not exist in reality any longer. Add that to the fact that the Second and Third Amendments are totally irrelevant in todays society (sorry gun lovers...you completely misinterpret the Second...although the ignorance is amusing at times when thousands aren't being killed because of it) The Tenth Amendment is the Federalist favorite that has just about been wiped out by the Commerce Clause, among other things...although some disturbed souls still think that states should have the right to deny fundamental human rights...like marriage and the right to family life (sorry...that is absolutely incorrect as well). So you are left with the 6th and 7th...which is kinda funny since they are subject to class and educational restrictions that are some of the first things you learn how to exploit in US law schools...and Ninth, which no one really remembers because it would be placed a little further down the list of importance since it is basically a "no contradiction" provision that everyone ignores (as I can demonstrate with the blatant US disregard for international law if you would like). In a strictly legal sense then, the Administration has not really run roughshod since it is hard to run over something that is non-existent to begin with. Although I suspect this also ties into your point about "American values"...

...which leads me to congratulate you on a good point regarding the determination of such "values." One thing I hated about the political exploitation of Tillman's death, and now the beheading, was all this BS about "American values." What values? Whose? Those of the government that completely disregards human rights, peace, and the right to dissent? The values of greed and individualistic self interest that leads to a fervent nationalism that is scary as hell due to the similarities to the flags and chants of Nazi Socialism? The belief that somehow Americans are better than everyone else due to the fact we live between a certain two imaginary lines drawn on a map and they don't? The belief that we can just ignore the poor and homeless and pretend not to see them by shutting ourselves in suburbia and gated neighborhoods? The values of those who run the education system and succeed in dumbing down our nation to the point that I can travel to South Africa or Sri Lanka and have people ask "What country in South Africa?" or "Where the hell is that?" respectively, while other nationals have intricate knowledge of the international community, world affairs, and world history? The values of those who think it ok to completely rape the environment and economies of the world and developing nations? The values of the Founding Fathers that are all but ignored today? The values enshrined in our Constitutional documents that have been torn asunder and basically swept aside even as the documents retain almost biblical status? Whose values? The values I see being protected are the ones that deny human rights, encourage ignorance, encourage exploitation and bigotry, encourage authoritarianism and the denial of freedom and true democracy, and the values that have caused our idealistic nation to become the most powerful and despotic in terms of global suffering and effects on the international community. i am thinking that this is not the way you wanted to go with the whole "values" comment, but the door was opened. i cannot express how encouraged I am to see governments in South America throwing off the yokes of neo-liberal free market oppression after 30 years of exploitation of the poorer populations. The defeat of the Indian government by those who would stop neo-liberal oppression there is encouraging. The defeat of the pro-US regime is encouraging in the Dominican Republic. Nelson Mandela and the international community continuing to condemn the US, UK, and Israel for their illegalities is a positive sign. North Korea and South Korea having dialogue despite the idiocy of US policy towards the North is encouraging. The condemnation of both the terrorist Palestinians and the state terrorism of the Israelis is great. If only there were those in the US ready to step up and harness the values that we should hold dear and hold our government to those standards to actually become a leader of the international community instead of the destroyer of it.

For the record...Carter helped start the whole current mess in the Middle East in the late 70's with his funding of terrorists to do our bidding (or so we hoped) versus the Soviets...Clinton's human rights record is almost if not as atrocious as Bush's, and Gore would have been the same piece of trash that Clinton was. I say this so that this does not turn into a silly partisan discussion that I often see in some of the prattling of "scholars" on this website. Lets keep it historical, theoretical and philosophical, thank you...I care not what your affiliation is and do not want you to think I criticize because of it. My critiques are strictly of a scholarly nature and will hopefully delve into factual or conceptual misunderstandings as opposed to worthless partisan slime. I hope we can both rise above that.

The Bush presidency is a failure...as will be the Kerry presidency...as was the Clinton presidency...as will be any presidency until we the US population get our collective heads out of our rear ends and actually become members of humanity instead of some sort of mega-deity of sorts.

What is the proper response to a suicide attack? To stop seeing history as a series of single points and realize that it is a neverending stream of causes and effects and that very rarely if ever is something not explainable. We could address the root causes of terror instead of invading nations on a whim. We could address our own oppression and hypocrisy. We could join the global community and create an international system that actually is effective. By the way...how about all the corruption that the US has contributed to the UN...including the Oil for Food Program? All nations acting in their self interests are going to exploit supposedly "global" programs for their own gains...this is the nation-state problem, not a bunch of "evil" governments...unless you include the US in those governments. Why did the US prevent the UN from stopping the genocide in Rwanda (with the French and Belgians)? Why is the US supporting a Chadian government that funds violent militias that massacre civilians in much the same fashion that the Sudanese government and its militias does? Why won't the US stop in Iraq and try to help the UN help the Sudanese? Because the Chadians and their terrorists are our "freedom fighters" helping fight the "war on terror" as we define it? THis is absurd! Freedom fighters and terrorists are the same thing...criminals who violate the sanctity of the basic human rights and values of others...values that we purport to uphold and support in our Constitutional framework. Should the corruption in the UN be investigated? Yes...and those responsible...including Americans...should be brought to face charges. Should US corruption and economic exploitation of the world through the World Bank, WTO and IMF be investigated and those responsible (ie the US government) be held accountable? Yes. If you answer no to this question after answering yes to the UN you become a hypocrite and lose all credibility. one cannot have it both ways. What you argue is a double edged sword. The consequences of your questions is that you are faced with a decision...continue on the nation-state path where self interest, corruption and greed dictates, and those with the power and military might make the rules and enforce them (ie global hegemony, Nazism, Soviet Totalitarianism, Islamic Fundamentalism, American Oppression etc)...or you sacrifice sovereignty in favor of a system that actually brings an international balance to the global community by mandating that narrow nation state self interest is not allowed to dictate international discussions.

The funny thing is that there is a system of international law in place and the legal system and practices are there...they just have to be utilized and acceded to. Of course if one is a rabid nationalist and "'Merican" one cannot comprehend these things since we are the Chosen Ones to lead the world and extoll our "virtue" upon it.

CP

Disagreeing versus randomized ranting

Clearly, professor McElvaine is not writing here to try to convince diehard Bushies of the error of their ways, let alone offer himself as a target for a fusillade of formulaic, tangential and inquisitional-style questions. Somewhere though, there are hardened criminals who need to be interrogated by someone of Todd Galle's vigor.
Mr. Galle, Uncle Sam wants you... to join the new, improved intelligence staff at Abu Ghraib. You may wish to act quickly, before it is razed to the ground and the "bad apples" covering up their knowledge and instigation of its former techniques are imprisoned themselves.

And historical background?

Nicely done, Chris Pettit, but perhaps a tad out of date. And, can you take on "ignorance by design" (John Dean's characterization of our current chief pretzel-conquerer) as well as just garden variety ignorance ?

I also wonder whether you have thought much about path-dependency, lesser evils, lost opportunities and counterfactuals, for example: John McCain winning South Carolina, or voting against the Iraq war resolution.

For some reason reading your piece reminds me of the KPD in the Reichstag of 1933. Maybe that is unfair, but really now, don't you think Ralph Nader would make a great senator ? As long as we are pursuing fantasy ideals here, make that a senator from Texas, please.

Perhaps it is the Historians who have Failed

Like the majority of scholars, I agree that George W. Bush has mostly failed as a president: huge deficits and reckless foreign policy, among other missteps. But, like most historians, I must qualify my statement because his presidency is not over (and may not be over until 2009). 1) It remains to be seen whether the nation-building in Iraq achieves anything worthwhile, the smug confidence of many historians that it will, or already has, failed notwithstanding. 2) Financial corruption does not especially bother me; it is a longstanding vice of all political-economies. Catch it when you can and punish if you can. 3) On the surface, the Patriot Act is antithetical to a free society, but it has not become the mechanism for a Red Scare that many observers thought it might be and it may well have thwarted follow-on 9/11 terror acts. This last assertion must await the release of Justice Department records. Anyway, I believe it was Congress (including Senator Kerry) and not President Bush who enacted this piece of obejectionable legislation.

What I've really learned from this article is not that historians think Bush is a failure (I already suspected that), but that many, if not most, American citizens think Bush is an okay president. The conclusion: the anti-Bush historians have failed to "enlighten" the public. Have they opted to focus on lecture topics that do not resonate with the student body? Do they write esoteric monographs that only a handful of scholars (and the authors' spouses) ever read? Do they prefer engaging in circular diatribes with each other (via such devices as the HNN or the usually boring annual conferences) instead of reaching out to the layman? Admittedly, I am more or less guilty on all three counts, but then I have not lambasted Bush with the same zeal as many of my colleagues.

Polls indicate that a majority of Americans are losing faith in the Bush presidency. This is probably due to the electorate's educated common sense and not the pedagogy of academia (although we can take comfort in the fact that our U.S. survey classes have hopefully struck a chord with a few students. Thus, indirectly, we have had a modicum of influence). Anyway, I think historians would do well to examine how they teach and write history, while also pointing out the mistakes of the nation's leadership.

P.S. I think Grant's presidency has been unfairly maligned by too many historians. He was a decent executive who conscientiously wrestled with an extremely challenging problem--Reconstruction in the South.

Re: Perhaps it is the Historians who have Failed

Well, really, we can't win.

If the American public disagrees with historians, then historians are out of touch. If the American public agrees with historians, clearly we have imposed our values on students and citizens....

If we make our political views clear, we are imposing our politics in our classrooms and abusing our authority. If we keep them to ourselves, we are irrelevant.....

I think we haven't failed, so much as we haven't tried very hard. That's why some of us write for public consumption, as well as our colleagues.

civil rights

Instead of falling into the trap of judging Bush's presidency before it is over and well before we can really judge it in historical terms, I would prefer to focus on the issue of civil rights -- a subject for which Robert McElvaine says that Bush was the worst since Wilson. I would argue that the absolute worst president in American history in regards to civil rights was Franklin D. Roosevelt. His detainment of the Japense-Americans during World WarII far exceeds Wilson in WWI and Adams in 1798-1801. Maybe the only challenge to Roosevelt is Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War. The suspension of Habeus Corpus, use of the military to supress the free (and dissenting) press, corruption in the war department, and tampering with the 1864 election, for example.

I cannot see how the Patriot Act is a rival to either of these two actions.

Am I alone in thinking this?

Re: Disagreeing versus randomized ranting

Mr. Clarke:

I am extremely offended that you would think that I would abuse any PW. Is it you position that if I disagree with your political philosopy, then I am capable of violating basic Human Rights? Is that your position? I am sorry, but I will not accept this. An apology should be offered, but I am not holding my breath, you haven't the courage.

Uncle Sam may have what is left if he needs it, vigor be damned, been there, done that and all. I could still probably qualify even with my eyesight. My language skills have lacked. Not much use speaking German in Iraq, unless one needs to translate the instructions on the recently discovered Sarin nerve gas shells. My MOS was different anyway.

Good to see that folks to the liberal side do not engage in a "fusillade [sic] of formulaic, tangential and inquistional-style questions...", unless it is a member of the Bush Administration on the receiving end, then Bob's Your Uncle, flail away.

As for Abu Graibh, destroy it. Period. I would also have photos on a wall surrounding the facility showing the castrations, murders, and mutilations recorded by the Hussein Regime. These should be then published in the major American newpapers.

I'll hold my breath on that.

Mr. Clarke...

For the record I am not a fan of Nader's either...he has done the American people a great favor with his refusal to sell out over the years and continue to pursue the righting of corporate injustices...but he should not be a politician and should not be running for President...or Senate for that matter.

I am confused by the out of date comment. What is it about my comments that are incorrect or out of date? The lesser evils argument is absolutely irrelevant when it comes to legality and human rights that have been recognized as inalienable. One can argue this philosophically and morally, but not legally. And in the world we live in, the reason humanity came up with the legal system is because there was the need for an objective system to rule upon basic human rights and governing regulations while attempting to avoid political, philosophical, religious, and cultural bias. It may not be totally effective, due to organizational structure or corruption at times, but it is still the only legitimate basis to debate this point without bringing bias into the equation in some form.

Lost opportunities...there have been many which is why we must learn from history to be able to stop repeating it over and over again.

Frankly, I am surprised at the relative opposition to my statements. What I argue is universal, not outdated. Can it be applied in a simplistic manner by those without the capacity to view things in a multi-cultural and interdisciplinary manner? Absolutely...but that happens in any situation. THis is no reason to dumb down the doctrines and travel into the realm of black and whites...or one size fits all acadameia.

What does John McCain have to do with all of this? If he becomes VP under Kerry, how does this not confirm the fact that we no longer live in a duolopoly of any sort and that your vote means nothing when there is no real choice in the matter? This is where Nader is actually playing a role by showing the paucity and vulgarity of our current system of governance.

I guess I am just a bit riled by the suggestion that care for humanity and human rights is out of date. It is that sort of blindness and narrowsighted vision that will allow cycles of violence and conflict to continue.

We must throw off the nation-state veil and actually enter into the international system. It amazes me that individuals still are of the mind that globalization does not permeate every action we make. Anything we do has effects internationally...that cannot be helped. Nothing can be said to be truly "sovereign" territory anymore. The sooner we wake up and realise that the better.

I would recommend reading some CG Weeramantry, Einstein, Aristotle, Hugo Grotius, Averroes, Avicennes, Prof. David Cole, Prof. Richard Falk, MLK Jr, the Dalai Lama, Mattieu Ricard...and several others if you would like a list. THese individuals happen to be the most forward looking and brilliant of our history. We must learn to heed the fundamental tenets of what they are saying and proceed accordingly. This is not to say they are not fallible as are we all...but they seem to "get it" while the rest of us flounder in "ignorance" (Buddhist definition).

CP

Re: Perhaps Frustration is the Historian's Destiny

I see your point. We have to make choices about what we emphasize in class and in our writing. We hope people find what we say to be edifying, but there are no guarantees.

I do observe an uncomfortable level of intellectual pride among historians. Because we have studied a topic more thoroughly, we ostensibly know more. And our training presumably makes us more qualified to analyze certain events. But I have found that an intelligent, well-read individual can assess history almost as well as an historian. And this is where we (or at least I) become frustrated, for our field of interest is one that many people find interesting to some degree or can relate to on a personal level. When a scientist speaks publicly about his speciality, the layman usually accepts without question. This is because a scientist is an "expert" in chemistry or physics or whatever, which is something most people don't naturally grasp. An historian (or an English professor or philosophy professor), however, is at best an "authority" on a subject, but never an "expert" for we can never know everything in the way a chemist theoretically can. Thus, though the public may respect our credentials, it feels perfectly free to dispute our findings and offer alternative explanations (something it rarely does with experts). And we are left wondering how and why they can think the way they do, yet understand how easily historical facts can be interpreted to prove virtually anything.

For me, the pursuit of history has been intellectually humbling. I often assert my views aggressively and sometimes arrogantly, but in the end I can never be completely sure of my position, and am frequently "enlightened" by the insights of non-professionals. So, I often simply pursue history simply for the pleasure of it and not as a mission to persuade anyone of anything.

Re: civil rights

The Patriot Act, like its predecessors under Wilson and Adams are egregious violations of civil liberties, but all three instances have been badly overblown by critics. In neither case was the fabric of democracy jeopardized and in all cases the "oppression" was temporary and targeted--most Americans never suffered a loss of freedom at all.

As for FDR and the Japanese-Americans, might not his measures actually have been the most expedient course of action? Had the Japanese-Americans not been interned, then west coast vigilantes, motivated by a patriotic-racist fervor, would likely have descended upon them, killing many and destroying property. FDR and the state governors (assuming they wouldn't have been party to the persecution) would then have been forced to use the military against their own citizenry (the white mob that is), a circumstance that would have resulted in martial law and suppression of civil liberties anyway. The fact that an internment occurred is less an indictment of FDR, who responded pragmatically, than a testament to the irrational cruelty of many Americans.

As for Lincoln, he was cautious and selective in using draconian measures. Qualified martial law in Maryland in 1861, until reasonable order was restored. Later, suspension of habeus corpus in a few mid-western states and specifically against Copperhead newspapers and politicians, such as Vallandingham who really was undermining the war effort. And Lincoln did reinstate the editors who General Burnside incarcerated. As for the 1864 election, some precinct controls were employed, but the republic was on the verge of imploding, so give Lincoln a break for ensuring that the war party prevailed. And give him credit for respecting the democratic process; he could have postponed or cancelled the election altogether. Thaddeus Stevens (a great champion of civil rights) understood that the revolutionary nature of the Civil War threw the libertarian aspects of the Constitution into abeyance. In other words, national survival trumps due process of the law, as well it should.

Presidents FDR and Lincoln agonized over their decisions, knowing full well how antithetical they were to America's cherished notions of freedom. I am not so sure that George Bush has had any similar misgivings about his recent conduct.

The POWs

Hold your offense, please, Mr. Galle. I was being perhaps inappropriately ironic, but if you read what I actually said the reference was to the "new improved" guards, who I assume are now helping to fix the problem which Rumsfeld and his policies created at Abu Ghraib.

Reply

To Chris Pettit:

I don't think we are in fundamental disagreement but there are perhaps important differences in emphasis.

I would agree that America’s national political system is fundamentally flawed. I think John McCain, a leader of campaign finance reform, is one of a small minority of politicians genuinely trying to address the problem (to little avail, so far, I freely admit).

I find your remarks "out of date" in that they do not seem to reflect the sea-change that has occurred under the new Cheney-Rumsfeld regime. In that sense, at least, you remind me of Nader. If you don't see that the current presidential administration is drastically worse than the norm in America, I have a whole lot of more recent books to recommend to you. A good one to start with would be John Dean's "Worse than Watergate".

Re: Perhaps Frustration is the Historian's Destiny

What a wonderful post. Some things always make sounds when they fall. Pretension and hubris come to mind.

re:Historians vs. George W. Bush

You teach this crap to our children? If we have to rely on you to record history people of the future won't have any idea what actualy happened.

re:Historians vs. George W. Bush

To which crap do you refer, Mr. Davidson?

Re: civil rights

I would have to see some proof of the notion that the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII was done to protect them in order to buy into that explanation. Otherwise, I will stick to my assertion that it was the most egregious violation of civil rights. As for Lincoln, I dragged him in because he was such a polarizing figure during the Civil War. I wish we had Gallup numbers throughout the Civil War to see where his approval ratings were. I doubt they would have been better than Bush's recent numbers. I wonder what today's historians would have thought had they lived during the Civil War. I am not trying to defend Bush per se, but I believe that the comments McElvaine quotes of other historians are lacking in a sense of proportion. I also wanted to raise the question of where do we draw the line between the excusable and inexcusable?

Re: Need some legal background?

You've done your homework, that now makes 12 Americans that know and understand the truths.

Historians vs. Bill Clinton

I often wonder what would have happened if you were to substitute Bill Clinton's name for every spurious act committed by George W.'s administration. What if Bill Clinton had gotten a blank check from Congress to invade Iraq based on "faulty intelligence?" And then asked Congress almost $200 billion to fund it after the fact? And if a huge chunk of that money went to a corporation with Clinton/Gore ties? And the result was world condemnation, the inflammation of Al Qaeda and thousands of Americans killed and maimed. And if Bill Clinton had pushed for a Constitutional amendment based on his cultural beliefs? Talk about impeachment - that would have been the grand slam impeachment of all times! I therefore believe that George W. has been successful at snatching Reagan's title as The Teflon President Extraordinaire.

re:Historians vs. George W. Bush

Indeed Mr. Davidson.
What would you call the wonderful decline of our country's mainstream education standards? We have a President who is abusive to the english language, profits from our sancioned destruction and declares war on trees.

re:Historians vs. George W. Bush

Indeed Mr. Davidson.
What would you call the wonderful decline of our country's mainstream education standards? We have a President who is abusive to the english language, profits from our sancioned destruction and declares war on trees.

Ahhh...I see Mr. Clarke

I apologise for allowing my perceptions to cloud my interpretation of what you said.

I think we are in agreement fundamentally...and usually seem to be which is why I was surprised at the objections you raised. While I do not share your enthusiasm on McCain, I will grant that he seems to be a decent individual who is at least trying to make progress. My beef with him would be with some of his ideologies and questionable stances...but I will grant he is better than most in many areas.

I do believe that you misinterpret my views on the American public situation. I do think that the current Administration is totally at odds with what most of Americans want and deserve. That being said...I see Kerry and the Democratic party as no different...or so marginally different as to be irrelevant. The democratic platform continues the oppression and self interested nationalistic arguments of the superiority of Americans in the world and this will not do. The American people are so undereducated as to be ignorant of most of the rest of the world and international legal structure. The difference between our education and awareness and those of other nations is astonishin when one sets foot in other countries.

By the way...Dean's book is fantastic and I like a lot of it. Please apologise if my text list came off as arrogant in any way. I was merely trying to demonstrate my background and admirations and offer some sources...not to try and look self righteous. I greatly respect your views and find them refreshing. Any reading you can recommend that I have not read would be fantastic. Please never hesitate to suggest some!

with regards

CP

History vs History

Interesting that the historians would upbraid one of their own. After all, George did get his BA from Yale as a history major, no?

The interesting thing about this -- assuming his degree was in that field and it is still valid (wondering if they can revoke his degree for failing to rememberate) -- is he may just be doing what comes natchuhlly, using history. There was a saying some time ago about those who don't study it are condemned to repeat it. BUT: not all history was wrong and it may have served George well by going back and reviewing the history of errors to make attempts at completing past events with new outcomes by NOT repeating those errors. But, there is the assumption that people of today will allow some of the things that worked then but won't work now. Ergo, we find out that successes of the past may be errors today. But that don't stop that dog from hunting; it just might be rabbit season ... or duck season ...
A proof of my position is his eagerness to go back into Iraqiaqia and try to finish what might have been left undone in 1991. What was unworkable then might have been possible now. Unresolved conflicts are a burden on some peoples' minds; and we have a collection of retreads in this adminstration who are getting their chances at resolving their obsessions and compulsions with Hussein just to see who's sane. But, alas, times change and situations do as well. New times require new faces. Unfortunately, the contagonists wrote their history before having lived it and they have a whole new set of unrealised expectations expectorating back in their faces by not being able to adequately judge the winds' directions. And what a slimy mess they've got now!
Thus, their attempt -- in this case -- at trying to recapture and redefine the past without the pesky mistakes is not working out. Going back to the old neighbourhood just doesn't arouse the same fellings. Overwhelming the Iriaiaqian military didn't work. Sanctions didn't work. Occasional bombings didn't work (although they were mighty regular between 1991 and 2001). So, the only option left that wasn't expected to work the first time around (classified as a mistake) was to invade. And now? What's next? Trying to round up all of those deserters and surrenderers from 1991 might be one option. Rekindling the fires of revolution from back then might be another. Sending Rumsfeld back to visit with his old bud Hussein might have worked.
What would Reagan have done? Nixon? How many more other ways can the ghosts and ghouls of the past be revived to provide guidance for today? What other historical events have been replayed and played again as boardgames for which plans are being made to revisit history to revise the failing grades, much like retaking a course ... but in the real world, the last grade received is the one that counts.

You know what I'd like to do on my next vacation?

I'd like to lay on a sunny hillside somewhere and listen to all of you debate current events. The intellectual discourse I find in your discussions is so enlivening yet sadly lacking in the rest of everyday life.

Please, gentlemen, keep up the good fight, whatever your persuasion. It reminds and affirms for me what is noble and good in human kind.

Re: civil rights

I am not an authority on FDR's internment policy, therefore I have no proof for my assertion. I mentioned it only as an alternative way of looking at something that at first glance is a terrible injustice. In any event, this apology for FDR developed through informal conversations with other scholars, some of whom compared it to President Jackson's Indian Removal policy, an instance where the president did believe that sending the Cherokee to Oklahoma was in the tribe's best interest (as well as the white Georgians).

My area is the Civil War, and I too would be interested in seeing what a Gallup Poll would have revealed. Lincoln's approval numbers may well have fluctuated wildly depending on the battlefield situation. As for what today's historians might have thought about the Civil War, had they lived through it, I can only conjecture that, on purely military grounds, many of them would probably have clamored to let the South go in early 1862 after such blood-lettings as Shiloh and McClellan's Seven Days debacle. But many would no doubt like to think of themselves as good abolitionists, so on the matter of slavery and freedom, they may have pushed for a harder war. Anyway, it does make for an interesting counter-factual discussion.

To Chris Pettit

Mr. CP,

I could not agree more re the "undereducated ignorance" of most Americans concerning world affairs. Having also lived abroad for some years, I can assure you that non-Americans are also not as well educated or informed as they ought to be as members of the global community (although the Americans' knowledge generally ranks near the bottom of industrialized countries in basic areas such as science and geography).

There is nothing at all "elitist" about wanting people in democratic countries to be more informed and aware of the world around them. America is already going to pay a high price for allowing the Bush approach of "ignorance by design" to go relatively unchecked for so long, and, furthermore, leaders worse than Bush are quite imaginable (e.g. "co-president" Cheney whose corporate crimes pale beside what might happen if he had sole control of the levers of power). Al Qaeda or some such group is bound to strike the U.S. again some day in some fashion, and the rest of us aren't nearly as well prepared as we should be for both that scenario and the likely attempts to capitalize thereon by the "Dr. Strangeloves" most of whom are not as inexperienced and blunder-prone as Bush, as feeble-minded as Ashcroft or as transparently predictable as Wolfowitz.

Having rejected most of the recent "exposé" books on the Bush Administration's foreign policy, because they lack proper documentation (there are already more than enough unsubstantiated rants available; here on HNN for example), I have found the following of some use (all published during the historically critical years 2002-03):

Prestowitz, "Rogue Nation"
Newhouse, "Imperial America"
Telhami, "The Stakes"
Zakaria, "Future of Freedom"

PKC

"the last grade received is the one that counts"

Yes, but G. W. Bush never was "one of their own", and his Cs in college History are proving to be fairly valid predictors of his apathy, sloppiness and mediocre performance as President. Would that his "eagerness" on Iraq had been truly based on a desire to "finish" what was "left undone in 1991" and not just on an arrogant assumption that shortsightedness (which won America the war in 1991 and then lost it the peace) would somehow "work" in 2002-03 (e.g. at the ballot box in 2004; as Bush made clear to Woodward, he doesn't care much about what kind of world he leaves behind him) if only it were accompanied this time by more unilateral bluster, more stubborn refusal to listen to outside advice, more unwillingness to admit mistakes or change course, and better soundbite management.

re:Historians vs. George W. Bush

Indeed Mr. Davidson, allowing for your gramatically incorrect comment, to what "crap" are you referring ? The essay cites numerous "facts." Do you suggest that historians should teach other than fact to the children ?

Japanese Internment

Messrs. Dehler and Severance,

I'm not sure what level of study I'd have to reach to qualify as an "expert" but I've read and written about the internment quite a bit.

"Protection" was never cited as a reason for the internment. It was a military security measure based on racism ("can they be trusted?") and not a whole lot more. The supposed factual basis for the decision was, in fact, fabricated by a notoriously racist general, and there was substantial lobbying by white interests who faced significant economic competition from Japanese immigrants, particularly in the California agriculture industry.

Missing Something

These words come to mind: "A recent informal, unscientific survey of historians conducted at my suggestion..."

Maybe it is just my postmodern predisposition, or just the fact that my origins are rooted in generation x. One thing I know for sure is that my love of the study of history was not sparked by scholarly historians whose time was spent on 'gallup' poles.

mk

Re: Missing Something

"Postmodern predisposition"?
This imformation is clearly based on empirical edvedence which we did not have easy access to during the human slaughter of the Vietnam era because we did not have the internet. Despite this, "generation x" has grown to be smug, dumb, fat, racist and horny. Perfectly programmed sheep begging to be sheared and slaughtered with dire consequences for humanity. The chickenhawks have tears coming out of thier eyes from laughing so hard all the way to the bank.

Re: I disagree.

Contending that there is no signficant difference between the current administration and the Democratic Party is bizarre to me.

I do not for a moment believe Al Gore would have crashed the economy by slashing taxes on the rich (which is the real cause of the deficit, not spending). Nor do I believe he would have reversed environmental protections, supported pseudo-science, proposed a Constitutional amendment to outlaw gay marriage, tried to outlaw stem-cell research, launch an invasion on the basis of flimsy intelligence and without support of the UN.

I could go on and on. The point is that these differences are not "marginal."

Re: Missing Something

(1) Quoting from "What rules govern discussion boards?" I would like to draw attention to Rule Number five: "Please be civil. No ad hominem attacks."

(2) ad hominem according to Webster...1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect; 2 : marked by an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made.

(3) "Clearly based on empirical edvedence" implies a formal and scientific study which is clearly not the intent of the McElvaine in this article.

Tag. Your it.

Re: Missing Something

Oops...I forgot something.

According to a formal and scientific study, Military Family Resource Center compiled a 2002 Demographics Study which states, "Nearly 80 percent (78.8%) of Active Duty personnel are 35 years of age of younger, while one-fifth (21.3%) are over 35 years of age."

The same study breaks this 80% down into 31.7% between the ages of 26 and 35, and 47.1% between the ages of 18 and 25. I believe this includes both x'ers and y'ers.

I guess (based on the tone of your response), the present Iraqi quagmire (and I do believe it to be a quagmire) is one way to eliminate the "smug, dumb, fat, racist and horny" generation x'ers.

More to come....

Worst. President. Ever.

Thank you for laying out the case from people who know what they are talking about, who have the perspective of having studied history.

Why is it that the vast majority of educated people who follow current events, despise Bush, and it's the ignorant ones, the ones who only watch Fox News or don't follow the news at all, who like Bush because, "He makes me feel safe! he stands up to the terrorists!"

A lot of this country is really freakin' stupid. I know how that sounds, but how can you explain this otherwise? Look at what has happened on his watch. But because he's a Republican, well, it's OK. If a Democrat (like, oh, CLINTON) had this kind of track record, he'd be impeached and convicted already.

(you didn't even get into the Plame affair when citing all the failures of Bush. That was TREASON committed in the Vice President's office)

But, Clinton is a bad guy even though his administration stopped the Millennium bomb plot, caught and jailed the WTC bombers, presided over an enormous budget surplus, actually paid down the debt, everyone had good paying jobs, and there was peace and prosperity.

But oh my god! He got a blow job! This man must be punished!

Jesus H. Christ. Orwell is bitterly laughing his ass off, wherever he is now.

Re: I disagree.

You disagree but offer no basis for the disagreement, no rebuttal to any point made. The intellectual poverty of your disagreement serves indirectly as affirmation.

Re: Perhaps it is the Historians who have Failed

> the smug confidence of many historians that it will, or already has, failed notwithstanding

This is like talking about the smug confidence we have that the sun will come up tomorrow because, after all, it might not.

Re: civil rights

The internment was also a means of robbing many Americans of their homes and wealth. Mr. Severance's fabrications here say a lot, as do his scare quoted oppression and his excusing it as long as it is "targeted" and not applied to "most" Americans.

And Mr. Dehler plays fast and loose with language and history when he accuses FDR of being the worst president in re civil rights on the basis of the arguably worst *instance* of civil rights abuse. If that is truly his criterion, then his concern about judging Bush's presidency before its completion is hypocritical, unless he is arguing that we don't yet know just how much worse it might end up.

Re: Missing Something

> marked by an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made.

And just what answer did you offer to the contentions made? "scholarly historians whose time was spent on 'gallup' poles [sic]" is a textbook example of an ad hominem argument. Sheesh.

Re: Missing Something

Please don't. Yes, Smith's response was uncivil, but then your postings in this thread haven't been all that nice, either.

For the record, though, empirical evidence does not mean, or imply, scientific rigor. It merely means that the evidence exists, it is real.

Re: Missing Something

"And just what answer did you offer to the contentions made?"

Ok class, open your textbooks to Debate 101.
First, I read the article which stated stated certain contentions based on an informal, unscientific survey.

Secondly, in answer to the contention of this article that implies an informal, unscientific survey as a valid empirical base, I stated the contention that "my love of the study of history was not sparked by scholarly historians whose time was spent on 'gallup' poles."

Next, you are now expected to offer an answer in response. Please avoid attacks on character. Instead, it is more civilized to offer a valid and logical argument in answer to my contention, which was in response to the article based on the implied contention and so on.

Allow me to explain, I read a contention, I answer, making a contention of my own, and then you respond with a reasonable answer in either the form of an affirmative or negative contention.

Note: Attacks on character imply an appeal to emotions rather than the intellect. This is often times driven by yet another emotion called insecurity. This would be clearly identified as an ad hominem attack.

Please note class, that there is a difference between the contention that is first brought to the table for discussion/debate and the answer that if given in response.

In this case, the response was clearly an "attack on the opponents character." Come on, you can't be serious in calling me horny or fat or dumb or racist?!

Of course, if you get your reasoning backwards, then you end up with the shallow response that tries to turn the ad hominem attack around.

Wherease, in this case, my contention is clearly stated in my original post. I read the article and my first contention was clearly communicated: "my love of the study of history was not sparked by scholarly historians whose time was spent on 'gallup' poles."

A few suggestions: Perhaps you may wish to defend gallup poles or this survey in particular or you may want to breakdown the validity of my understanding/love of history. Another approach may be to call into question the intellect of whatever kind of historians have influenced me since I was clearly not influenced by 'gallup pole' historians.

But please don't insult my intelligence by calling me horny. That won't help your argument in the least.

Re: Missing Something

Really, Mr. micah knapp.
Cointelpro. I will not subscribe to the rape, murder and torture of women and children by fat, murderous, racist thugs who hide behind our military's uniforms or the hopelessly corrupted chickenhawks who hide behind our American flag. This is dishonorable to the people who serve, risk and die for America with honor. we have a generation that chose to ignore history. Since we have over two bilion more human beings living on this planet, the results will be more severe.Only the arrogance of the "generation x" culture could be decieved by cointelpro or the likes of Mr. Bush. You may call me uncivil if you wish but I am no prima donna.

Re: Missing Something

Mr. Dresner,

I appreciate your honesty. I also agree with your response.

I think that "historians whose time was spent on 'gallup poles'" is rather tame compared to being labeled a "horny, fat, racist" et al. This is a little more than unnecessary in the context of a discussion thread hosted by HNN and occupied by scholars. Aggressive and satyrical, perhaps allowed; brash and immature, preferrably not.

I will try to do better on my part.

Also, your comment on empirical evidence is well said, I must clarify my position somewhat however. I do concure with your understanding of empirical, even so, I cannot bring myself to see how statistics compiled on such an issue can be separated from scientific rigor.

Obviously, there is the an implied hypothesis that says Bush does not "fare nearly so well among professional historians." And so to validate this hypothesis, a survey is drawn up and administered to a select group of historians at George Mason University's HNN only, in an effort to draw out and test its logical or empirical efficacy. Accordingly, such such a study should result in the establishment of a theory. In this case, according to the statistics gathered, the conclusive theory is claimed is that historians are against Bush and consdier him the worst president ever.

Of course, we are historians, not scientists so we cannot give away that we have borrowed scientific methodology. :)

I would go even further to say that this above mentioned theory is inadequate. Based on the limited pool of historians surveyed, the hypothesis needs to be adjusted and a more cogent theory (based on this masked scientific study) should state clearly, "HNN Historians are against Bush and believe he is the worst president ever."

mk

Re: Missing Something

And so history repeats itself. I think we agree on more than we might admit. I must confess, we are both good at stereotypes and sweeping generalizations.

Allow me to wax personal for a moment.

I guess I have suffered from stereotypes and sweeping generalizations for so long that I have become good at forming them.

Yes. I hated and ignored history in High School and the early stages of college, mainly because all my history teachers didn't think I would amount to anything. I guess everyone gave up on me before ever giving me a chance--as I see it, this is mainly due to stereotypes and generalizations.

So I formed my own with regard to history teachers/professors.

Suddenly, I met one history professor who was different. This changed everything. He actually took history seriously and he took me seriously. And thus began my love of the study of history.

Regarding perfection. I wouldn't expect anyone to be able to reach such an unreality. In this case however, civility befits us, and I am no prima donna.

mk

Re: Worst. President. Ever.

M Falli;

Agreed. Well, all except the "H" in Jesus Christ.

I don't think that it would make any difference, either Republican or Democrat or Libertarian. Given the circumstances, humanity would rush to crown whomever offers the better package, so long as [s]he ensured them of their protection--ensured them of their personal peace and affluence.

If my understanding of history is correct, the masses more often than not, allow oppression, even enjoy oppression in the name of security and stability.

Octavius, Hitler, Sen. McCarthy, Reagan, Clinton, Bush, or Harrison Ford...it's easy to say that it wouldn't matter who they are or what team they are on. The majority of humanity continues making the same mistakes. Albeit, while laughing our asses off.

mk

Re: Missing Something

Mr. Knapp,

I gave up a long time ago trying to keep score in exchanges like the above, but I have consistently found that a reasonably cool response is much more likely to get the discussion back on track than responding in kind (and sometimes they even apologize). It's my experience, and you can take it for what it's worth.

Regarding the larger subject at hand, I was under the impression that the hypothesis of the poll, based on anecdotal evidence such as public rhetoric, was that Bush was a polarizing figure, and the "best since/worst since" form was a way of measuring that polarization as well as giving it some qualitative specificity.

415 responses is a really good return rate: I haven't taken statistics, so I can't replicate the calculations, but that's a lot of respondents for a niche site like this. Even national polls are considered statistically valid with fewer than two thousand respondents, and this is a poll of historians, a significantly smaller population. [By the way, I freely admit to my students and colleagues that history is a social science, though as someone once said, it's the science of things that happen once. Nonetheless, the thesis-hypothesis-evidence-analysis model is entirely consonant with historical methods, though our standards of proof are often more humanistic/qualitative than quantitative.] The question of poll validity based on self-selection is one which the entire polling industry is struggling: as phone call screening and do-no-call-lists pare down the respondent rate of "push" surveys, their validity is declining (thought they hate to admit it) and the validity of self-selected surveys is increasing as the internet permits broader contacts of more carefully defined groups. In other words "scientific" surveys, if they ever truly existed, are increasingly mythical and new methods of analysis have to take that into account.

We can quibble about analysis, but this is a remarkably good piece of social science data collection, particularly for a bunch of historians, and an historical record that will be of inestimable value (in other words, I don't know how useful it'll be, but I think there'll be something useful in it) in the years ahead.

Re: Missing Something

Mr. Dresner,

I appreciate your insight and learn from such dialogue.

While it may turn out to be a valuable piece of work in the years to come, I think it may also be misinterpreted, even misquoted by many. i.e. all historians, as opposed to historians connected with the HNN poll. Of course, this too is a struggle, like poll self-selection, that may never be eliminated. In other words, there will always be people who misinterpret and misquote statistics.

I also find that statistics, more often than not, reflect the bias' of certain groups. I presently live and work as an American History teacher in Shanghai, China. I read statistics everyday in the local newspapers both Chinese and English.

I am sure that you are aware of the issue at hand here. In studying Chinese language and modern history over the past three years, I have come to notice how very good the CCP is at tweaking statistics and crunching numbers for selfish gain in addition to their utilizing statistics to promote their the Party agenda both nationally and internationally. Perhaps this has caused me to be overly skeptical of statistics.

In hashing it out in this manner, I have come to realize that I would be more easily swayed by a more qualitative and analytical academic argument, rather than statistical analysis. While it may be good information for an statistician or someone more easily convinced by numbers and graphs, the Liberal Arts student moves on to other more 'pressing' arguments.

Thanks,
mk

HISTORIANS vs GEORGE W. BUSH - HNN Special

Thank you for letting me comment. I just read the above article. History will prove how far off base these people are! I suppose that this great country of ours allows the abusive and degrading remarks such as most of these people used. Yet it is surprising that the rules HNN imposes on those of us who want to comment, strictly forbids use of some of these terms, words and phrases these "history professors" used in degrading and humiliating our Great President! Ralph W. Weiss, Sr.

Re: Worst Ever.

Treason is a "high crime" by any normal definition, however one might choose to classify lying under oath about oral sex. So why aren't the traitors in Washington impeached already ? Mr. Fallai's hypothesis to explain recent American political history -which might be summarized as "Republicans are ignorant hypocrites"- is incomplete without a discussion of the associated corollary: Democrats are spineless wafflers. And it is a bit of a stretch to impeach members of the Republican Administration for actions consistent with or at least predictable under policies which many congressional Democrats ratified.