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Noam Chomsky: Terrorists Wanted the World Over

SOURCE: TomDispatch.com (2-26-08)

[Noam Chomsky is the author of numerous best-selling political works. His latest books are Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy and What We Say Goes, a conversation book with David Barsamian, both in the American Empire Project series at Metropolitan Books. The Essential Chomsky (edited by Anthony Arnove), a collection of his writings on politics and on language from the 1950s to the present, has just been published by the New Press.]

On February 13, Imad Moughniyeh, a senior commander of Hizbollah, was assassinated in Damascus."The world is a better place without this man in it," State Department spokesperson Sean McCormack said:"one way or the other he was brought to justice." Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell added that Moughniyeh has been"responsible for more deaths of Americans and Israelis than any other terrorist with the exception of Osama bin Laden."

Joy was unconstrained in Israel too, as"one of the U.S. and Israel's most wanted men" was brought to justice, the London Financial Times reported. Under the heading,"A militant wanted the world over," an accompanying story reported that he was"superseded on the most-wanted list by Osama bin Laden" after 9/11 and so ranked only second among"the most wanted militants in the world."

The terminology is accurate enough, according to the rules of Anglo-American discourse, which defines"the world" as the political class in Washington and London (and whoever happens to agree with them on specific matters). It is common, for example, to read that"the world" fully supported George Bush when he ordered the bombing of Afghanistan. That may be true of"the world," but hardly of the world, as revealed in an international Gallup Poll after the bombing was announced. Global support was slight. In Latin America, which has some experience with U.S. behavior, support ranged from 2% in Mexico to 16% in Panama, and that support was conditional upon the culprits being identified (they still weren't eight months later, the FBI reported), and civilian targets being spared (they were attacked at once). There was an overwhelming preference in the world for diplomatic/judicial measures, rejected out of hand by"the world."

Following the Terror Trail

In the present case, if"the world" were extended to the world, we might find some other candidates for the honor of most hated arch-criminal. It is instructive to ask why this might be true.

The Financial Times reports that most of the charges against Moughniyeh are unsubstantiated, but"one of the very few times when his involvement can be ascertained with certainty [is in] the hijacking of a TWA plane in 1985 in which a U.S. Navy diver was killed." This was one of two terrorist atrocities that led a poll of newspaper editors to select terrorism in the Middle East as the top story of 1985; the other was the hijacking of the passenger liner Achille Lauro, in which a crippled American, Leon Klinghoffer, was brutally murdered. That reflects the judgment of"the world." It may be that the world saw matters somewhat differently.

The Achille Lauro hijacking was a retaliation for the bombing of Tunis ordered a week earlier by Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres. His air force killed 75 Tunisians and Palestinians with smart bombs that tore them to shreds, among other atrocities, as vividly reported from the scene by the prominent Israeli journalist Amnon Kapeliouk. Washington cooperated by failing to warn its ally Tunisia that the bombers were on the way, though the Sixth Fleet and U.S. intelligence could not have been unaware of the impending attack. Secretary of State George Shultz informed Israeli Foreign Minister Yitzhak Shamir that Washington"had considerable sympathy for the Israeli action," which he termed"a legitimate response" to"terrorist attacks," to general approbation. A few days later, the UN Security Council unanimously denounced the bombing as an"act of armed aggression" (with the U.S. abstaining)."Aggression" is, of course, a far more serious crime than international terrorism. But giving the United States and Israel the benefit of the doubt, let us keep to the lesser charge against their leadership.

A few days after, Peres went to Washington to consult with the leading international terrorist of the day, Ronald Reagan, who denounced"the evil scourge of terrorism," again with general acclaim by"the world."

The"terrorist attacks" that Shultz and Peres offered as the pretext for the bombing of Tunis were the killings of three Israelis in Larnaca, Cyprus. The killers, as Israel conceded, had nothing to do with Tunis, though they might have had Syrian connections. Tunis was a preferable target, however. It was defenseless, unlike Damascus. And there was an extra pleasure: more exiled Palestinians could be killed there.

The Larnaca killings, in turn, were regarded as retaliation by the perpetrators: They were a response to regular Israeli hijackings in international waters in which many victims were killed -- and many more kidnapped and sent to prisons in Israel, commonly to be held without charge for long periods. The most notorious of these has been the secret prison/torture chamber Facility 1391. A good deal can be learned about it from the Israeli and foreign press. Such regular Israeli crimes are, of course, known to editors of the national press in the U.S., and occasionally receive some casual mention.

Klinghoffer's murder was properly viewed with horror, and is very famous. It was the topic of an acclaimed opera and a made-for-TV movie, as well as much shocked commentary deploring the savagery of Palestinians --"two-headed beasts" (Prime Minister Menachem Begin),"drugged roaches scurrying around in a bottle" (Chief of Staff Raful Eitan),"like grasshoppers compared to us," whose heads should be"smashed against the boulders and walls" (Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir). Or more commonly just"Araboushim," the slang counterpart of"kike" or"nigger."

Thus, after a particularly depraved display of settler-military terror and purposeful humiliation in the West Bank town of Halhul in December 1982, which disgusted even Israeli hawks, the well-known military/political analyst Yoram Peri wrote in dismay that one"task of the army today [is] to demolish the rights of innocent people just because they are Araboushim living in territories that God promised to us," a task that became far more urgent, and was carried out with far more brutality, when the Araboushim began to"raise their heads" a few years later.

We can easily assess the sincerity of the sentiments expressed about the Klinghoffer murder. It is only necessary to investigate the reaction to comparable U.S.-backed Israeli crimes. Take, for example, the murder in April 2002 of two crippled Palestinians, Kemal Zughayer and Jamal Rashid, by Israeli forces rampaging through the refugee camp of Jenin in the West Bank. Zughayer's crushed body and the remains of his wheelchair were found by British reporters, along with the remains of the white flag he was holding when he was shot dead while seeking to flee the Israeli tanks which then drove over him, ripping his face in two and severing his arms and legs. Jamal Rashid was crushed in his wheelchair when one of Israel's huge U.S.-supplied Caterpillar bulldozers demolished his home in Jenin with his family inside. The differential reaction, or rather non-reaction, has become so routine and so easy to explain that no further commentary is necessary.

Car Bomb

Plainly, the 1985 Tunis bombing was a vastly more severe terrorist crime than the Achille Lauro hijacking, or the crime for which Moughniyeh's"involvement can be ascertained with certainty" in the same year. But even the Tunis bombing had competitors for the prize for worst terrorist atrocity in the Mideast in the peak year of 1985.

One challenger was a car-bombing in Beirut right outside a mosque, timed to go off as worshippers were leaving Friday prayers. It killed 80 people and wounded 256. Most of the dead were girls and women, who had been leaving the mosque, though the ferocity of the blast"burned babies in their beds,""killed a bride buying her trousseau," and"blew away three children as they walked home from the mosque." It also"devastated the main street of the densely populated" West Beirut suburb, reported Nora Boustany three years later in the Washington Post.

The intended target had been the Shi'ite cleric Sheikh Mohammad Hussein Fadlallah, who escaped. The bombing was carried out by Reagan's CIA and his Saudi allies, with Britain's help, and was specifically authorized by CIA Director William Casey, according to Washington Post reporter Bob Woodward's account in his book Veil: The Secret Wars of the CIA, 1981-1987. Little is known beyond the bare facts, thanks to rigorous adherence to the doctrine that we do not investigate our own crimes (unless they become too prominent to suppress, and the inquiry can be limited to some low-level"bad apples" who were naturally"out of control").

"Terrorist Villagers"

A third competitor for the 1985 Mideast terrorism prize was Prime Minister Peres'"Iron Fist" operations in southern Lebanese territories then occupied by Israel in violation of Security Council orders. The targets were what the Israeli high command called"terrorist villagers." Peres's crimes in this case sank to new depths of" calculated brutality and arbitrary murder" in the words of a Western diplomat familiar with the area, an assessment amply supported by direct coverage. They are, however, of no interest to"the world" and therefore remain uninvestigated, in accordance with the usual conventions. We might well ask whether these crimes fall under international terrorism or the far more severe crime of aggression, but let us again give the benefit of the doubt to Israel and its backers in Washington and keep to the lesser charge.

These are a few of the thoughts that might cross the minds of people elsewhere in the world, even if not those of"the world," when considering"one of the very few times" Imad Moughniyeh was clearly implicated in a terrorist crime.

The U.S. also accuses him of responsibility for devastating double suicide truck-bomb attacks on U.S. Marine and French paratrooper barracks in Lebanon in 1983, killing 241 Marines and 58 paratroopers, as well as a prior attack on the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, killing 63, a particularly serious blow because of a meeting there of CIA officials at the time.

The Financial Times has, however, attributed the attack on the Marine barracks to Islamic Jihad, not Hizbollah. Fawaz Gerges, one of the leading scholars on the jihadi movements and on Lebanon, has written that responsibility was taken by an"unknown group called Islamic Jihad." A voice speaking in classical Arabic called for all Americans to leave Lebanon or face death. It has been claimed that Moughniyeh was the head of Islamic Jihad at the time, but to my knowledge, evidence is sparse.

The opinion of the world has not been sampled on the subject, but it is possible that there might be some hesitancy about calling an attack on a military base in a foreign country a"terrorist attack," particularly when U.S. and French forces were carrying out heavy naval bombardments and air strikes in Lebanon, and shortly after the U.S. provided decisive support for the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, which killed some 20,000 people and devastated the south, while leaving much of Beirut in ruins. It was finally called off by President Reagan when international protest became too intense to ignore after the Sabra-Shatila massacres.

In the United States, the Israeli invasion of Lebanon is regularly described as a reaction to Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) terrorist attacks on northern Israel from their Lebanese bases, making our crucial contribution to these major war crimes understandable. In the real world, the Lebanese border area had been quiet for a year, apart from repeated Israeli attacks, many of them murderous, in an effort to elicit some PLO response that could be used as a pretext for the already planned invasion. Its actual purpose was not concealed at the time by Israeli commentators and leaders: to safeguard the Israeli takeover of the occupied West Bank. It is of some interest that the sole serious error in Jimmy Carter's book Palestine: Peace not Apartheid is the repetition of this propaganda concoction about PLO attacks from Lebanon being the motive for the Israeli invasion. The book was bitterly attacked, and desperate efforts were made to find some phrase that could be misinterpreted, but this glaring error -- the only one -- was ignored. Reasonably, since it satisfies the criterion of adhering to useful doctrinal fabrications.

Killing without Intent

Another allegation is that Moughniyeh"masterminded" the bombing of Israel's embassy in Buenos Aires on March 17, 1992, killing 29 people, in response, as the Financial Times put it, to Israel's"assassination of former Hizbollah leader Abbas Al-Mussawi in an air attack in southern Lebanon." About the assassination, there is no need for evidence: Israel proudly took credit for it. The world might have some interest in the rest of the story. Al-Mussawi was murdered with a U.S.-supplied helicopter, well north of Israel's illegal"security zone" in southern Lebanon. He was on his way to Sidon from the village of Jibshit, where he had spoken at the memorial for another Imam murdered by Israeli forces. The helicopter attack also killed his wife and five-year old child. Israel then employed U.S.-supplied helicopters to attack a car bringing survivors of the first attack to a hospital.

After the murder of the family, Hezbollah" changed the rules of the game," Prime Minister Rabin informed the Israeli Knesset. Previously, no rockets had been launched at Israel. Until then, the rules of the game had been that Israel could launch murderous attacks anywhere in Lebanon at will, and Hizbollah would respond only within Israeli-occupied Lebanese territory.

After the murder of its leader (and his family), Hizbollah began to respond to Israeli crimes in Lebanon by rocketing northern Israel. The latter is, of course, intolerable terror, so Rabin launched an invasion that drove some 500,000 people out of their homes and killed well over 100. The merciless Israeli attacks reached as far as northern Lebanon.

In the south, 80% of the city of Tyre fled and Nabatiye was left a"ghost town," Jibshit was about 70% destroyed according to an Israeli army spokesperson, who explained that the intent was"to destroy the village completely because of its importance to the Shi'ite population of southern Lebanon." The goal was"to wipe the villages from the face of the earth and sow destruction around them," as a senior officer of the Israeli northern command described the operation.

Jibshit may have been a particular target because it was the home of Sheikh Abdul Karim Obeid, kidnapped and brought to Israel several years earlier. Obeid's home"received a direct hit from a missile," British journalist Robert Fisk reported,"although the Israelis were presumably gunning for his wife and three children." Those who had not escaped hid in terror, wrote Mark Nicholson in the Financial Times,"because any visible movement inside or outside their houses is likely to attract the attention of Israeli artillery spotters, who… were pounding their shells repeatedly and devastatingly into selected targets." Artillery shells were hitting some villages at a rate of more than 10 rounds a minute at times.

All of this received the firm support of President Bill Clinton, who understood the need to instruct the Araboushim sternly on the"rules of the game." And Rabin emerged as another grand hero and man of peace, so different from the two-legged beasts, grasshoppers, and drugged roaches.

This is only a small sample of facts that the world might find of interest in connection with the alleged responsibility of Moughniyeh for the retaliatory terrorist act in Buenos Aires.

Other charges are that Moughniyeh helped prepare Hizbollah defenses against the 2006 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, evidently an intolerable terrorist crime by the standards of"the world," which understands that the United States and its clients must face no impediments in their just terror and aggression.

The more vulgar apologists for U.S. and Israeli crimes solemnly explain that, while Arabs purposely kill people, the U.S. and Israel, being democratic societies, do not intend to do so. Their killings are just accidental ones, hence not at the level of moral depravity of their adversaries. That was, for example, the stand of Israel's High Court when it recently authorized severe collective punishment of the people of Gaza by depriving them of electricity (hence water, sewage disposal, and other such basics of civilized life).

The same line of defense is common with regard to some of Washington's past peccadilloes, like the destruction in 1998 of the al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Sudan. The attack apparently led to the deaths of tens of thousands of people, but without intent to kill them, hence not a crime on the order of intentional killing -- so we are instructed by moralists who consistently suppress the response that had already been given to these vulgar efforts at self-justification.

To repeat once again, we can distinguish three categories of crimes: murder with intent, accidental killing, and murder with foreknowledge but without specific intent. Israeli and U.S. atrocities typically fall into the third category. Thus, when Israel destroys Gaza's power supply or sets up barriers to travel in the West Bank, it does not specifically intend to murder the particular people who will die from polluted water or in ambulances that cannot reach hospitals. And when Bill Clinton ordered the bombing of the al-Shifa plant, it was obvious that it would lead to a humanitarian catastrophe. Human Rights Watch immediately informed him of this, providing details; nevertheless, he and his advisers did not intend to kill specific people among those who would inevitably die when half the pharmaceutical supplies were destroyed in a poor African country that could not replenish them.

Rather, they and their apologists regarded Africans much as we do the ants we crush while walking down a street. We are aware that it is likely to happen (if we bother to think about it), but we do not intend to kill them because they are not worthy of such consideration. Needless to say, comparable attacks by Araboushim in areas inhabited by human beings would be regarded rather differently.

If, for a moment, we can adopt the perspective of the world, we might ask which criminals are"wanted the world over."


This article first appeared on www.tomdispatch.com, a weblog of the Nation Institute, which offers a steady flow of alternate sources, news and opinion from Tom Engelhardt, a long time editor in publishing, the author of The End of Victory Culture, and a fellow of the Nation Institute.

Source: 
TomDispatch.com
Source URL: 
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174899
Date: 
2-26-08

and after all of that, the fact remains:

Hezbollah is evil.

Re: and after all of that, the fact remains:

That's exactly what Chomsky emphasizes
in his article!

"who will outlive and out fight the other ?"

Choking as they might, just might, be to the American public the samples of the "selected crimes of the USA and/or Israel" recited by Chomsky come as no surprise to this Araboushim, nor to his kin and people.

We have known what Zionism, Israel and the USA, relatively lately, really are for the last 75 plus years.
Neither the "philosophy" underlying these crimes nor the political goals sought through them by the Zionist/Imperialist axis will lessen our determination to repulse the aggressor .

If anything both the philosophy and political goals will only produce more and more and more "terrorists" such as Mughenieh!

It is a long haul but the real issue is "who will outlive and out fight the other ?" Zionist/Israeli aggressive racism cum expansionism and USA Imperialism or the Arab/Moslem world?

We have absolutely no doubt about the outcome for, as eloquently depicted by Chomsky, it is , for us the fight for LIFE against evil incarnate!

An excellent and insightful article

The distinction Professor Chomsky makes between murder with intent, accidental killing, and murder with foreknowledge but without specific intent is a necessary basis for an understanding of the criminal nature of the American-Israeli axis. Well done to HNN for securing this article. Absolutely compelling.

Re: An excellent and insightful article

"The criminal nature of the American-Israeli axis"? So you're firmly on the side of Hizbullah, Hamas, al-Qa`idah, the Muslim Brotherhood and other liberation organizations, eh, Ms. Gee?
If you live in the U.S., I need to move to Australia.

Re: An excellent and insightful article

Well, Mr Furnish, since you ask, no - although I must qualify that because of the imprecise nature of what you mean by the term "liberation organisations". I do not, for instance, support the anti-Castro Cuban terrorist organisations operating out of the United States. As I said, I am against the criminal mature of the American-Israeli axis. In fact, like so many of my fellow citizens, I'm against crime in general on principle, and war crimes and crimes against humanity in particular. Does that help you?

Re: An excellent and insightful article

Please explain the "criminal nature" of the "American-Israeli axis," madame. "Crimes" as defined by.......the U.N.? the O.I.C.? The DNC? Noam Chomsky?

Re: An excellent and insightful article

Professor,

Ms. Gee holds rather remarkable views. According to her (and I quote):

OK, suffering ethnic cleansing is not unique, but a sense of reality and a little commonsense kind if hints that the application of at least one repugnant strand of Jewish thought - Zionism - has led directly to the plight of the Palestinian people to the benefit of the Jews who have taken over their land.

Also, according to Ms. Gee (and I quote):

... I use no double standards - which is why I regard Zionism as the most direct contemporary expression of Nazism.

However, evidently, contemporary Nazism, as she envisions it, is not similar to what you and I think Nazism is. Her contemporary Nazis do not have death camps. They allow elections in which their enemies vote, etc., etc.. You may wish to read her views in detail here. This will tell you everything you need to know to understood who she is and what she believes, most especially about Jews and Israel.

Re: An excellent and insightful article

Why not read the article, Mr Furnish? You may learn something. Well, maybe..

Re: An excellent and insightful article

Not so remarkable outside your paranoid hatehead circles, Mr Friedman, and certainly commonplace outside the United States and Israel.

At the end of the day, it may be possible to achieve a fully secular bi-national state in Palestine or, depending on Israeli behaviour, it may not and as American power weakens other nations will start to fill the vacuum. Mindful of the fact that Israel is nuclear state, if their tolerance is stretched too far, it may seem sensible to remove the Israeli state as an obstacle to any satisfactory kind of peace in the Middle East.

It will come about through Realpolitik and not the hairsplitting gabble that seems to be your favourite approach (if not, indeed, your only) to intellectual analysis.

Oh, and if you can't see the parallels between Nazism and Zionism, you are a part of the problem, not the solution.

Re: An excellent and insightful article

"Hatehead," eh? A neologism from a Chomskyite--how exciting!
Ms. Gee, I liked you better when you were just the title of a Paul McCartney B-side--and you made more sense then.

Re: An excellent and insightful article

"Hatehead," eh? A neologism from a Chomskyite--how exciting!
Ms. Gee, I liked you better when you were just the title of a Paul McCartney B-side--and you made more sense then.

Re: An excellent and insightful article

Well, language waits for no one and we certainly need a few new words in our language to describe the kind of people who voice paranoid, religio-ethnic hatred against Muslims. "In the begging was the Word, and the Word was with God", and later on men added to the Word to accomodate a changing, and nastier, reality.

This is certainly the first time I've been referred to as a Chomskyite. You may be right so I'd better check out more of his work.

Re: An excellent and insightful article

So do you deem it "religio-ethnic hatred against Muslims" when I read the Qur'anic passages mandating beheading of the unbelievers (such as Sura Muhammad:3,4) in Arabic and translate them accurately? How about Sura Nisa':33ff, which mandates beating of one's wives? Any possibility that Islam itself and its adherents bear ANY responsibility for the violence perpetrated by those claiming to act in its name?

Re: An excellent and insightful article

Ms. Gee,

Secular state? My suggestion to you, Ms. Gee, is that a great many Palestinian Arabs do not appear to want a secular state. If we go by their choice of political parties, a great many of them want, instead, a theocracy in which people believing in religions other than Islam are oppressed.

Re: An excellent and insightful article

Professor,

Ms. Gee appears to question the bona fides of the scholarship of people of the caliber of Bernard Lewis. According to Ms. Gee, "Does anyone accept the existence of Bernard Lewis's "scholarship" in the Islamic world, I wonder?" Surely, you cannot expect her to accept facts such as what appears in the Koran?

Re: An excellent and insightful article/DO NOT Speak for the Pal

"Re: An excellent and insightful article (#119836)
by N. Friedman on March 2, 2008 at 12:01 AM
Ms. Gee,

Secular state? My suggestion to you, Ms. Gee, is that a great many Palestinian Arabs do not appear to want a secular state. If we go by their choice of political parties, a great many of them want, instead, a theocracy in which people believing in religions other than Islam are oppressed"

Although it is only a "suggestion" the intent is clear; further denigration and demonization of the Palestinians by alluding to their election of Hamas as proof of wanting a theocratic state.
Which ,if that is their free democratic choice, should be
respected.

But it is NOT, according to all available data from the field.

Hamas was ELECTED primarily as a PROTEST movement against:
-Fatah's futile "peace" policy option
-Fatah's corruption
-Fatah's failed policies

Re: An excellent and insightful article/Small and Pitiful

Having failed to find fault, in principle or detail, with Chomsky's brilliant piece Professor Furnish reverted to the pathetic, school playground level argument:

" So you're firmly on the side of Hizbullah, Hamas, al-Qa`idah, the Muslim Brotherhood and other liberation organizations, eh, Ms.Gee? "

(Re: An excellent and insightful article (#119800) by Tim R. Furnish on March 1, 2008 at 4:29 PM)

How small and pitiful!

The childishness and plain immaturity of some of the "Professors" we encounter here is amazing!

Re: An excellent and insightful article

The Koran is a historical source which should be used, as should all sources, with respect. And the respect arises from the context in which any passage is quoted and the use to which it is put. In this sense it is like every other document containing religious teachings.

Selective quotation from a foundation document is always likely to lead to a misunderstanding of the behviour of others and merely seems to reflect unthinking acceptance the intellectual influence of the methodology of Biblical fundamentalism, Christian and Jewish, and its reliance on the literal interpretation of the Word.

Re: An excellent and insightful article/DO NOT Speak for the Pal

The Gaza genocide continues apace and, as more and more men, women and children die under the Israeli onslaught while Mr Friedman quibbles.

One question comes to mind: will the world allow Israel, as a state whose sole purpose seems to be the commission of genocide in the name of an earlier genocide, to survive as long as the soviet Union or Yugoslavia? Mind, I'm sure that Mrssrs Eckstein and Friedman will take great comfort in the fact that Israel has already outlasted the Third Reich so it has already had a good innings, as they say in Britspeak.

Re: An excellent and insightful article/DO NOT Speak for the Pal

Omar,

There is no way really to know the "why" regarding Hamas's victory. The polling data that has come out is contradictory. One set of polling data would have it that Hamas came in due to corruption. Another set of polling data show that 65% Palestinian Arabs want Shari'a to be the source of all law. No polling data show that Hamas won due to failures by Fatah in its "peace" policy - quotation marks around "peace" since you used them.

Whatever the case is, the fact is that Palestinian Arabs opted for complete religious lunatics to rule them. If that was a protest vote, it was a rather moronic one.

Re: An excellent and insightful article

Ms. Gee,

You write: "The Koran is a historical source which should be used, as should all sources, with respect."

Meaning no disrespect toward Muslims, what does "respect" have to do with this? Nothing at all. What should be employed is the same methods used by Muslims, if one wants to understand the texts as Muslims do.

In this case, Professor Furnish has not quoted anything out of context. In fact, it is rather easy to find how Muslims interpret these passages, if one is interested.

My suggestion to you is: rather than throwing out BS, as is your custom, claiming, in this case, that one needs to interpret things with respect, go investigate how these verses are understood by Muslim. That way, you might cut down a bit on the BS.

Re: An excellent and insightful article

Mr Friedman, "respect" means don't deliberately seek to distort meanings nor impute distorted meanings to the adherents of a religious or, for that matter, legal text.

Simple really once you give it a little thought.

Re: An excellent and insightful article

Ms. Gee,

I think you are lying.

I think you meant that one should not read the passages to mean something which, to Western ears, would sound hateful.

Re: An excellent and insightful article

You're really losing it, Mr Friedman. But then that may be your plan. How many people take a genocidal pantaloon seriously, after all?

Re: An excellent and insightful article

Sally, Sally G,
Sorry, still having McCartney flashbacks.
I'm curious: have you ever read the Qur'an?

Re:

The posting above is one of the single most repulsive things ever put on HNN. Really, it is disgusting.

Re: Gee's insanity

Gee writes: "Will the world allow Israel, as a state whose sole purpose seems to be the commission of genocide in the name of an earlier genocide, to survive..."


This statement above is one of the single most repulsive things ever put on HNN. Really, it is disgusting.

Re: Gee's insanity

Ms. Gee's persistent identification of Israel with Nazi Germany has been totally demolished by myself and Mr. Friedman in several long threads, on the basis of facts. Gee first argued that Israel was a "classic Nazi state," then when forced to admit that it had none of the characteristics of Nazi Germany, she called it an "evolved Nazi state," i.e., a state with none of the characteristics of Nazi Germany, but a free press, free elections, no concentration camps, no Fuhrers, etc., etc.--but still somehow "Nazi." Sure.

Her intellectual performance is disgraceful; she is a crude anti-Jewish propagandist. But this statement above is truly disgusting. Especially when she evinces not the slightest interest in Darfur, where 400,000 innocent civilians have been killed by an Islamic government.

Michael Walzer's and Human Rights Watch's position--demolishes C

Michael Walzer is one of the pre-eminent political philosophers of our time. Here is what he writes about who is REALLY responsible for civilian deaths in situations such as that created by Hamas in Gaza:

"The crucial argument is about the Palestinian use of civilians as shields. Academic philosophers have written at great length about "innocent shields," since these radically exploited (but sometimes, perhaps, compliant) men and women pose a dilemma that tests the philosophers' dialectical skills. Israeli soldiers are not required to have dialectical skills, but, on the one hand, they are expected to do everything they can to prevent civilian deaths, and, on the other hand, they are expected to fight against an enemy that intentionally hides behind civilians.

There is no neat solution to their dilemma. When Palestinian militants launch rocket attacks from civilian areas, they are themselves responsible--and no one else is--for the civilian deaths caused by Israeli counterfire. [REPEAT; WHEN PALESTINIAN MILITANTS LAUNCH ROCKET ATTACKS FROM CIVILIAN AREAS, THEY ARE THEMSELVES RESPONSIBLE--AND NO ONE ELSE IS--FOR THE CIVILIAN DEATHS CAUSED BY ISRAELI COUNTERFIRE.] But Israeli soldiers are required to aim as precisely as they can at the militants, to take risks in order to do that, and to call off counterattacks that would kill large numbers of civilians. That last requirement means that, sometimes, the Palestinian use of civilian shields, though it is a cruel and immoral way of fighting, is also an effective way of fighting. It works, because it is both morally right and politically intelligent for the Israelis to minimize--and to be seen trying to minimize--civilian casualties.

Still, minimizing does not mean avoiding entirely: Civilians will suffer so long as no one on the Palestinian side takes action to stop rocket attacks. From that side, though not from the Israeli side, easy steps could be done to stop harm to civilians."

This is also the position taken by Human Rights Watch: hiding behind civilians is a war crime.

"It is a war crime to seek to use the presence of civilians to render certain points or areas immune from military operations or to direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attack."

Re: Michael Walzer's and Human Rights Watch's position--demolish

Art, the problem (as I'm sure you know, but like me you just get fed up with it) is that the Sally Gees of the world don't care about history, logic or common sense--just about their warped political agenda.

Re: Michael Walzer's and Human Rights Watch's position--demolish

Don't I know it, Tim! They are impervious to facts or logic, and their reply to being confronted with devastating facts or logic is to hurl personal abuse.

Unfortunately, we must continue to reply to people such as Gee and Omar; otherwise these idiots and crude propagandists will dominate HNN. As it is, we make them look ridiculous time after time, which has its own value.

Re: Michael Walzer's and Human Rights Watch's position--demolish

Walzer's position on sovereignty and the nature of political communities has its attractions, particularly in the light of recent US interventions and its support of a specifically Jewish state on another peoples land.

It is a war crime to bring harm to civilians, whether intentionally or not simply on the basis of the balance of probabilities, whether or not the enemy is using civilians as a human shield, and if so, whether they do so intentionally or not.

Walzer's statement quoted above, "Civilians will suffer so long as no one on the Palestinian side takes action to stop rocket attacks. From that side, though not from the Israeli side, easy steps could be done to stop harm to civilians", does not effectively wish away Israeli war crimes when civilians are murdered and maimed and driven off their land, and its illegal occupation of Palestinian territory since 1948 merely emphasises that Israel is a state founded on the principle that the primary purpose of its existence is to commit crimes against humanity in order to maintain its control over another people's territory.

Re: Gee's insanity

Messrs Eckstein and Friedman, instead of pouring out your infantile vapourings defending the racist state of Israel, whose only logic is to make its neighbours' lives a misery, why don't you follow the excellent example of Rachel Corrie and volunteer your time and effort to provide physical assistance to the threatened people of Darfur?

Re: An excellent and insightful article

Isn't that why God invented Penguin paperbacks, Mr Furnish?

Re: Michael Walzer's and Human Rights Watch's position--demolish

Gee has no reply to Walzer's point that those who intentionally hide among civilians while firing at civilians are the people ultimately responsible for what happens when counterfire occurs. Hence Human Rights Watch calls such tactics a war crime.

Having no response to Walzer's point or Human Rights Watch, she now seeks to change the subject to crimes of the past. But if she wants to bring up Deir Yassin, as these crude propagandists always do, I suggest--without minimizing Deir Yassin--that she look up and do research on the horror of the "Mt. Scopas Massacre." Omar, for one, has refused to do this--as if the massacre of 70 Jewish doctors and nurses didn't happen. And as for the Nakbah, 100,000 more Jews were expelled from Arab lands between 1948 and 1960 than Palestinians from the Mandate in 1948 in the midst of a war started by the Palestinians themselves.

Re: An excellent and insightful article

Ms. Gee,

So, have you read the Koran?

Re: An excellent and insightful article/DO NOT Speak for the Pal

Ms. Gee,

Again, use of terms without a care in the world what they mean is the method of a brute. Such appears to be your specialty.

Re: Michael Walzer's and Human Rights Watch's position--demolish

Oh, poor, dear, deluded Mr Eckstein. I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make but let's try and untangle your lack of logic.

A soldier is guilty of a war crime if s/he kills a civilian without specific cause. A soldier is guilty of a war crime if s/he uses a civilian as a human shield.

Walzer's point "...that those who intentionally hide among civilians while firing at civilians are the people ultimately responsible for what happens when counterfire occurs" is morally wrong and legally incorrect. Soldiers, and the commanders of soldiers, have choices which are clearly defined in the law of war. Civilan "terrorists" do not have their choices so clearly defined although if they were to use a civilians as a human shield against soldiers that may well be a crime, but it is certain that a soldier who chooses to kill or maim or otherwise incapacitate those constituting the human shield will have committed a war crime.

Whatever sympathy there is for Israel, it is rightly running out as the war crimes and crimes against humanity pile up. I predict that in less than a decade, a thoroughly impoverished US will wash its hand of Israel and will merely be one small part of the coalition of forces which will dismantle the Jewish state as it is presently constituted. Samson option viable? Maybe, maybe not. But even then, only once.

You may not like it but it's very simple really, and the world knows it. And, by and large, the world doesn't have much regard for career criminals when they're caught in the act once too often.

Re: Michael Walzer's and Human Rights Watch's position--demolish

Ms. Gee,

Are you an expert on International law? I do not think so. I also do not think that your analysis of International law on the topic is correct.

I think that there are, in fact, allowances pertinent to circumstances where military establishments and the like are situated within a civilian population. I think that International law places the blame on those who do so for acts directed at such establishments. Which is to say, I think you are wrong.

Re: Michael Walzer's and Human Rights Watch's position--demolish

If that is the case, Mr Friedman, for the life of me I can't see why the United States has not signed up to the International Criminal Court.

NOTE worthy!

The notable thing here is that none of the herd addressed what Chomsky wrote!
Although it would have been dwarfs addressing a giant it would have been intersting to follow!

Re: Michael Walzer's and Human Rights Watch's position--demolish

What does that have to do with anything? This is not a counter-argument to N.F. who is a lawyer.
Gee is not.

Re: NOTE worthy! Another falsehood from Omar

That's just another falsehood from Omar. Read what Eckstein wrote, quoting from Michael Walzer and Human Rights Watch against Chomsky, at #119930. There follow EIGHT responses.

Re: Michael Walzer's and Human Rights Watch's position--demolish

Because Mr Frieman is wrong but the United States and Israel have acted as if he were correct.

Simple when you think about it, Mr Multi-Awarded Eckstein - but I guess none of your many awards are for quick thnking, heh?

Re: Michael Walzer's and Human Rights Watch's position--demolish

So Human Rights Watch is wrong as well, according to Gee, that fighting from among civilians is a war-crime.

And Gee's answer to Walzer is that "he is wrong" that the ultimate moral responsibility lies with those who fight from the shelter of civilians, attacking civilians, for the counterfire that then occurs--but she offers no argument for why "he is wrong", just an assertion.

Re: An excellent and insightful article

I suppose it all depends what you ean by the term "read", Mr Friedman: as literature or as theology? Although you seem to have no place left for either because your little head is just absolutely filled to busting with crude - one might even say brutish - hateheaded, anti-Muslim, religio-ethnic propaganda pitched to tickle the sensibilities at the most basic sub-fascist level.

Did you major in Getting It Wrong, Mr Friedman?

Re: Michael Walzer's and Human Rights Watch's position--demolish

Oh dear, I just can't seem to scrape you from the sole of my shoe, Mr Eckstein.

See if this one gets through: if A, amongst B attacks (or threatens to attack, or whatever) C, and C retaliates by attacking B. Oh, that's perfectly alright. Just Arabs, heh? Can't tell the difference can you? All the same to me. After all, a nod's as good as a wink to a blind horse, innit (as they say in Britspeak)?

If you can't see the problem, then the fault truly lies within you, Mr Mult-Awarded Eckstein, and you need more than my advice: you need the very best professional help you can get to sort out your personality disorder.

Re: Michael Walzer's and Human Rights Watch's position--demolish

Ms. Gee,

The US did not sign up for the ICC for many state reasons - and, evidently, opposition has been bipartisan. President Clinton effectively killed the measure for his time in office by, first, signing it and, then, intentionally not sending it to the Senate for ratification. That is a political way of killing an issue without having to state opposition publicly.

President Bush, by contrast, has been more direct in his opposition. His administration has raised many issues with the document, of varying degrees of logic.

I think that the real concern involves the possibility of placing Americans at the potential whim of foreign courts which claim to protect the rights of accused but, in fact, likely do a far worse job than do American courts.

Re: Michael Walzer's and Human Rights Watch's position--demolish

Like I said, a nod's as good as a wink to a blind horse. Maybe if you and Mr Multi-Awarded Eckstein combine forces you might be able to get a discount from a suitable provider.