Return to Ryan Sager Rethinks Libertarianism
Re: Ryan Sager Rethinks Libertarianism
(#47267)
by Chris Matthew Sciabarra on November 23, 2004 at 6:01 AM
by Chris Matthew Sciabarra on November 23, 2004 at 6:01 AM
Only relentless in the sense of targeting known camps and networks when necessary; I'm one of those guys who have favored taking down Al Qaeda, for example.
Re: Ryan Sager Rethinks Libertarianism
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by Mark Brady on November 23, 2004 at 12:14 PM
by Mark Brady on November 23, 2004 at 12:14 PM
I'm sure Chris, who lives in Brooklyn, would not have been happy had the British government fought "relentless military battles" "in the sense of targeting known ... networks" of Irish-American sympathizers of the Provisional IRA in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s.
Re: Ryan Sager Rethinks Libertarianism
(#47291)
by Aeon J. Skoble on November 23, 2004 at 1:57 PM
by Aeon J. Skoble on November 23, 2004 at 1:57 PM
That's not a good analogy.
1, The IRA-sympathizers who lived in America were not acting in accordance with the US government. The Taliban govt of Afghanistan was acting in concert with Al Qaeda.
2, Sympathizing with the IRA, while morally obtuse, isn't the same thing as being a member of the IRA. Chris was referring to targeting _actual_ members of Al Qaeda. I don't know about Chris, but this Brooklyite would have no objection if an _actual_ IRA terrorist cell operating in Brooklyn were taken down by SAS agents, although it would probably be better if that were a joint SAS/FBI operation. But see point 1.
1, The IRA-sympathizers who lived in America were not acting in accordance with the US government. The Taliban govt of Afghanistan was acting in concert with Al Qaeda.
2, Sympathizing with the IRA, while morally obtuse, isn't the same thing as being a member of the IRA. Chris was referring to targeting _actual_ members of Al Qaeda. I don't know about Chris, but this Brooklyite would have no objection if an _actual_ IRA terrorist cell operating in Brooklyn were taken down by SAS agents, although it would probably be better if that were a joint SAS/FBI operation. But see point 1.
Re: Ryan Sager Rethinks Libertarianism
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by David T. Beito on November 23, 2004 at 2:24 PM
by David T. Beito on November 23, 2004 at 2:24 PM
The U.S. did essentially wink and nod (give refuge to) at the presence of IRA sympathizers during the 1970s in the U.S. during that period (and earlier) especially in states like Massachusetts which large Irish populations. I remember that not so long ago that IRA often raised money, and quite publicly, in the U.S.
Re: Ryan Sager Rethinks Libertarianism
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by Aeon J. Skoble on November 23, 2004 at 3:30 PM
by Aeon J. Skoble on November 23, 2004 at 3:30 PM
Sympathizers, or combat troops? As I said, IRA _sympathizers_ are morally obtuse, but that's their right. It is proper for the govt to allow citizens to express support for immoral causes. Did the US govt run IRA training camps? That would have to be the case for Mark's criticism of Chris to be valid.
Re: Ryan Sager Rethinks Libertarianism
(#47305)
by Mark Brady on November 23, 2004 at 3:47 PM
by Mark Brady on November 23, 2004 at 3:47 PM
I wish to make a number of points. First, when I mentioned "Irish-American sympathizers of the Provisional IRA", I had in mind fund-raisers who, as David points out, often raised money publicly in the U.S. Second, Provos themselves found sanctuary in the United States during the 1970s and later. Third, Aeon writes: "The Taliban govt of Afghanistan was acting in concert with Al Qaeda." Wasn't it more a question of the Taliban being unwilling (unable?) to expel Al Qaeda?
Re: Ryan Sager Rethinks Libertarianism
(#47342)
by Chris Matthew Sciabarra on November 24, 2004 at 7:35 AM
by Chris Matthew Sciabarra on November 24, 2004 at 7:35 AM
I think that the issue was not so much that the Taliban was unwilling to expel Al Qaeda, but that Al Qaeda was practically the military arm of the Taliban. The relationship was symbiotic in many ways. I do think that it was virtually impossible to strike back at Al Qaeda terrorists without thereby taking down the Taliban as well.
This does not mean that I am oblivious to the U.S. role in helping to actually constitute Al Qaeda and the Taliban---a role that stretches back to US assistance to "freedom fighters" or Mujahideen in Afghanistan as a foil to the Soviet Union. Nor does it mean that I am oblivious to the persistence of warlordism, tribalism, and the emergence of a narco-state in Afghanistan, on the US watch. I've written about this in a number of posts here at L&P.
This said: I do not advocate "relentless military strikes" on Al Qaeda "sympathizers," but on actual terrorist camps and networks. If I were advocating such strikes on "sympathizers," I would have to also advocate military assaults on Yemeni clerics in Brooklyn who have been revealed as financial supporters of the Al Qaeda network. Obviously, there are other ways of striking at that network that go beyond military. Military strikes need to be limited and targeted to be effective in neutralizing a threat.
Ultimately, of course, this whole situation requires a rethinking of US foreign policy, which is what I've been addressing here at L&P for over a year, such that it is not on a collision course with those "dark forces" of Islam that I alluded to in the current post.
This does not mean that I am oblivious to the U.S. role in helping to actually constitute Al Qaeda and the Taliban---a role that stretches back to US assistance to "freedom fighters" or Mujahideen in Afghanistan as a foil to the Soviet Union. Nor does it mean that I am oblivious to the persistence of warlordism, tribalism, and the emergence of a narco-state in Afghanistan, on the US watch. I've written about this in a number of posts here at L&P.
This said: I do not advocate "relentless military strikes" on Al Qaeda "sympathizers," but on actual terrorist camps and networks. If I were advocating such strikes on "sympathizers," I would have to also advocate military assaults on Yemeni clerics in Brooklyn who have been revealed as financial supporters of the Al Qaeda network. Obviously, there are other ways of striking at that network that go beyond military. Military strikes need to be limited and targeted to be effective in neutralizing a threat.
Ultimately, of course, this whole situation requires a rethinking of US foreign policy, which is what I've been addressing here at L&P for over a year, such that it is not on a collision course with those "dark forces" of Islam that I alluded to in the current post.
Taliban and Al Qaeda
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by Mark Brady on November 26, 2004 at 7:20 PM
by Mark Brady on November 26, 2004 at 7:20 PM
I suggest that the relationship between the Taliban and Al Qaeda was rather different from that described by Chris. Consider some recent remarks by investigative reporter Seymour Hersh, who spoke last week at Hampshire College in Amherst, Mass. "Early in 2002, the Taliban was split. About 50 percent of the Taliban leadership hated Osama bin Laden and wanted him out. We could have worked with them. But we went ahead and treated the Taliban as one entity. The Taliban has survived. Al Queda has survived. We wanted to eliminate crazy people who want to fly planes into buildings. But instead we dehumanized everyone in Afghanistan and Iraq." To read more of Hersh's speech, go to Joyce Marcel's account, Bush: When Even the Good News Is Bad posted November 26 at: http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1126-10.htm
Return to Ryan Sager Rethinks Libertarianism
by Mark Brady on November 22, 2004 at 9:56 PM