Return to Moving Toward Democracy?
Re: I'm not convinced
(#50046)
by Chris Matthew Sciabarra on January 6, 2005 at 4:48 PM
by Chris Matthew Sciabarra on January 6, 2005 at 4:48 PM
I don't think that Bellin is arguing (nor am I) that the liberal remnants are the "major explanatory factor." I think she's saying that it takes a combination of factors: industrialization (and we might add: a growing middle class), some prior institutional experience with procedural democracy, homogeneous culture and ethnicity, and so forth.
You are right about the apocalyptic nature of the Japanese and German defeat, which shook the respective people's faith in their own institutions. Of course, the victory of WW 2 was so overwhelming that it eliminated all of the Axis powers, and, thus, destroyed any potential Axis allies in the postwar period from interfering with the restructuring of Japan or Germany. The same dynamic is not at work in the Middle East.
Theocracy of any sort, including Islamic fundamentalist theocracy, seeks to destroy the distinction between civil society and state. Some sort of civil society is required for the defeat of statism. But the delicate forces that forge civil society can't be imposed on a country by writ. I think that this last point is one of the central themes of Bellin's article.
You are right about the apocalyptic nature of the Japanese and German defeat, which shook the respective people's faith in their own institutions. Of course, the victory of WW 2 was so overwhelming that it eliminated all of the Axis powers, and, thus, destroyed any potential Axis allies in the postwar period from interfering with the restructuring of Japan or Germany. The same dynamic is not at work in the Middle East.
Theocracy of any sort, including Islamic fundamentalist theocracy, seeks to destroy the distinction between civil society and state. Some sort of civil society is required for the defeat of statism. But the delicate forces that forge civil society can't be imposed on a country by writ. I think that this last point is one of the central themes of Bellin's article.
Re: I'm not convinced
(#50073)
by Max Swing on January 7, 2005 at 7:36 AM
by Max Swing on January 7, 2005 at 7:36 AM
There are at least some liberal traditions in Germany (although Germany was always very statist) like Max Weber or as a party (I know this is a difficult issue for Libertarians) the FDP. Their roots are in the South-West, where the first constitutional state of Germany Baden had been around 1848. So, yes, there were liberal traditions and the US government or the British government tried to use them. For example in the British zone around Cologne, there was a lot of laissez-faire capitalism, which vanished when the German parliamant was assembled and started passing restrictive rules.
So, yes, there were some liberal elements in Germany, rather more than in Iraq.
I'd also like to point out that by 1919 women had the right to vote, which was the first time in europe women were regarded to do such a thing..
All these incidents draw a picture that is entirely different from Iraq or even Japan, so we couldn't even compare Japan and Germany as examples.
So, yes, there were some liberal elements in Germany, rather more than in Iraq.
I'd also like to point out that by 1919 women had the right to vote, which was the first time in europe women were regarded to do such a thing..
All these incidents draw a picture that is entirely different from Iraq or even Japan, so we couldn't even compare Japan and Germany as examples.
Return to Moving Toward Democracy?
by Jason Pappas on January 6, 2005 at 2:43 PM