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Barry Rubin: In Search of Ahmadinejad

Roundup: Historians' Take




[Barry Rubin is director of the Global Research in International Affairs (GLORIA) Center http://gloria.idc.ac.il and editor of the Middle East Review of International Affairs (GLORIA) Center http://meria.idc.ac.il . His latest books are The Truth About Syria (Palgrave-Macmillan) and The Long War for Freedom: The Arab Struggle for Democracy in the Middle East (Wiley).]

A massive controversy has erupted in the United States, and across the world, around Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s visit to New York, where he spoke at the United Nations and Columbia University.

Who is this man and what does he want? Is he a new Hitler or a leader with understandable grievances who should be engaged in dialogue? Apart from the passion provoked and naïveté too often shown toward this leader, how can we accurately assess him?

Ahmadinejad is a demagogue on a lot of issues for three distinct reasons:

First, he is trying to use his radical stance—extremist even on the already extreme Iranian political spectrum—to gain control of the country. As head of a faction and due to personal ambition he is trying to displace other groups. Supreme Guide Ali Khamenei remains the single most powerful person in Iran and Ahmadinejad real rival within the country.

Second, Ahmadinejad is pursuing the Iranian Islamist revolution’s long-term goal—but one not always given top priority by the regime—of spreading Islamist revolution throughout the region and emerging as the most powerful force in the Middle East. In terms of promoting Iran’s primacy, there is an inherent nationalist as well as Islamist element in his policy.

Third, Ahmadinejad seems to be a true believer in the Iranian Islamist ideology which sees international politics as a struggle between the true followers of the deity and the allies of Satan.

Ahmadinejad’s goals, then, are his control over Iran, Iran’s control over the Persian Gulf area (especially Iraq), Israel’s destruction, Iranian leadership over the Middle East, the expulsion of Western (and especially American) influence from the region, and even world domination, in roughly that order.

Basically, Ahmadinejad is not a unique phenomenon in modern Middle East history. The role to be filled is that of the leader of the Arabs and Muslims as well as prime enemy of America, Israel, and the West. In this respect, he is comparable to Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser in the 1950s and 1960s; Iran’s Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in the 1970s and 1980s; Iraqi President Saddam Hussein in the 1980s and 1990s; and Usama bin Ladin during the period before and especially after September 11, 2001. Yet Ahmadinejad has also become a symbol for the radical Islamist challenge to everyone else in the world

What makes Ahmadinejad different? The key element here, and one due to his own words and behavior, is that he seems not to be held back by caution, a rational calculation of the balance of forces, even if judged by the standard of his predecessors aside from bin Ladin of course. In other words, Ahmadinejad seems capable of anything and consequently far more dangerous. This conclusion is not just a matter of Western projection. I’ll bet that at times he scares even Khamenei.

Here are some elements in that set of problems:

--Ahmadinejad makes statements implying his belief that the end of the world is at hand and the Shia messiah is on the way. Thus, provoking war with Israel or the United States is not so much to be seen as risking the destruction of Iran’s Islamist regime as fulfilling its divine mission.

--For a number of reasons, Ahmadinejad thinks that his side is winning and the West is weak and in retreat. That could provoke him to even more extreme adventurism.

--While other Iranian leaders have spoken about Israel’s destruction, he is putting it higher on his agenda and is more likely to do something to try to implement this objective.

--The way things are going he will one day have nuclear weapons to play with in fulfilling his goals. Two important points should be noted here. First, the bombs and missiles would be held by the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps, his close ally and the main liaison between Iran and terrorist groups, itself raising the prospect of their being used. Second, even if Iran never used nuclear weapons the effect on the region would be devastating. Arab governments would rush to appease Iran; large numbers of Arabs would rush to join radical Islamist groups believing that this movement is the wave of the future.

--In Iraq, Iran has gone into a virtual state of war against the United States trying to project Tehran’s influence and killing American soldiers.

--Ahmadinejad has also become, for all practical purposes, the leader in promoting hatred of the United States and not only of Israel but of Jews in general.

What undercuts the dangers posed by Ahmadinejad? He still does not have full control over Iran and may never achieve this goal. Since he is a Shia Muslim and is not an Arab it is more difficult for him to play a leadership role over the largely Sunni Muslim Arabic-speaking world. Not impossible, as these barriers have been partly overcome, but harder nonetheless.

Thus, Ahmadinejad has not yet achieved the status of being equivalent to Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin as the world’s leading threat to peace and freedom but he is certainly trying to rise to this level.

It should be rather obvious that this is not a problem caused by lack of communication and that engagement with him will not have any moderating effect. He must be opposed and his regime pressured. Aside from the problems posed by the Iranian government in general, taking a tough stand against Ahmadinejad is necessary to convince his colleague-rivals that they must get rid of this guy and tone down their country’s behavior in order to ensure their own survival and that of their regime.
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omar ibrahim baker - 10/19/2007

Mr Clarke
You do stop at small, practically insignificant, meaningless episodes of the long running, and seemingly much longer running, Arab/Israeli confrontation now that it is rapidly metamorphosing into an Arab/Moslem-Israeli/Jewish confrontation.
(Consider the change in Iranian policy and the potential, eventual, change in Turkish policy.)

1973 is the year in which Arabs, Egypt and Syria mainly, and Israelis practically fought each other to a stand still on both fronts until the USA intervened DIRECTLY by replenishing the Israeli arsenal with decisive, mainly aircraft, weaponry.

Except for USA intervention the war, with very heavy casualties in both camps, would have ended with a draw; i.e. with neither a clear uncontested victor nor a clear undoubted vanquished.
Both parties could have claimed victory and neither party could have claimed demolishing the other as Israel did in 1967!

That could have been the stage at which a regional, political, settlement could have been reached on a mutually accepted basis and possibly, probably, accepted by both state and nation of both camps.

With USA intervention on behalf of Israel the war ended with an incontestably clear Israeli military victory with its forces inside, West of Suez, Egyptian territory and much closer to Damascus than at the outset of the war.

With subsequent USA total and unconditional support Israel came to believe, as it does now, that it can IMPOSE a regional settlement on the vanquished based solely on its own terms and conditions.

That can never be the basis of a durable peace even though some regimes did, and more regimes are likely to, accept to their eventual dislocation from power.

The conflict with Israel is not a state to state confrontation.
It is a nation to nation, nationlaist cum cultural, including religious, confrontation with all that that implies and encompasses..

It is one of those historical confrontations that can NOT end with one party submitting for long to the will of the other party.

What some Arab states DID accept is liable, and with most present Arab regimes is bound, to be rejected by the nation.

The issue is NOT, say, All Frenchmen go back to France and all Germans go back to Germany and the governments of both states making peace as, I suspect, you would know.

As to Bush Jr, the only real difference is that he came out publicly with what Kissinger started: total American identification with and unconditional support of Israeli policies, designs and ambitions.


omar ibrahim baker - 10/19/2007

Mr Friedman
The military particularities of 1973 are neither my concern here nor within my field of knowledge.
USSR assistance to Egypt was, however, minimal in size and scope compared to America's to Israel while Sharon in Cairo and the Delta could have been a killing field for Israeli soldiers.

Nevertheless that is not the point of my post.

MY point is:

“Except for USA intervention the war, with very heavy casualties in both camps, would have ended with a draw; i.e. with neither a clear uncontested victor nor a clear undoubted vanquished.
Both parties could have claimed victory and neither party could have claimed demolishing the other as Israel did in 1967!

That could have been the stage at which a regional, political, settlement could have been reached on a mutually accepted basis and possibly, probably, accepted by both state and nation of both camps.

With USA intervention on behalf of Israel the war ended with an incontestably clear Israeli military victory with its forces inside, West of Suez, Egyptian territory and much closer to Damascus than at the outset of the war.”

The ‘morale’ of which is:

”With subsequent USA total and unconditional support Israel came to believe, as it does now, that it can IMPOSE a regional settlement on the vanquished based solely on its own terms and conditions”.

That is where we stand now:
“Israel came to believe, as it does now, that it can IMPOSE a regional settlement on the vanquished based solely on its own terms and conditions”.

A state of affairs that can NEVER lead to a DURABLE peace.

On the other hand I DO believe that, historically, the USA did Israel a disservice, and radical Islamism a great service, by nurturing Israel’s most sanguine ambitions and humouring its most rabid designs.

1973 made Sharon and Sharonism will be the undoing of Israel


omar ibrahim baker - 10/19/2007


"Are you punning me, Omar?
"Totally subservient" makes it "identical", at the least, in the spirit of current discussion."
(Re: The Search for Ahmedi Nejjad (#114470)by Arnold Shcherban on October 10, 2007 at 5:42 PM)

No I am not punning you.

To the best of my understanding of the English, American?, language "identical" means wholly totally similar; exactly as etc and implies a state of equality .
While "totally subservient" means servile, at the service of, subjugated to etc and denotes a master/servant relationship.

Otherwise we agree in essence.

I take this opportunity to highlight what I construe as a relatively new development; the inordinate growing influence of Conservative and Orthodox Judaism on some Christian denominations, particularly in the USA, that has diluted some of them to the point of being, practically, undistinguishable from C&O Judaism.

The symbiotic growth of both pauses as much of a danger to US foreign policy as it is to US internal/domestic policies (social security, heath care, free education , freedom of speech , thought and religious affiliation, anti discrimination etc).

My basic contention is that Zionism, being based on the ridiculous hypothesis of divinely granted special prerogatives and super (extra) rights of conquest, usurpation and colonization, is as pernicious, destructive, reactionary and retrogressive as its erstwhile nemesis Nazism to the whole world and not only to its present "victims"; the Palestinian people!
(Did you read what Israel Shahak had to say on the subject??)

As such, I contend, anti Zionism is a universal, humane and progressive movement in which all humankind has a vested interest and the USA a no less vital interest being its other “victim” .


omar ibrahim baker - 10/19/2007

"Christian Zionism is directly connected with the Restorationism movement and owes its intellectual origins to that movement. Such people hold that the Jewish covenant with God ...."
(Re: The Search for Ahmedi Nejjad /To Arnold Shcherban (#114489)
by N. Friedman on October 11, 2007 at 2:50 PM)

Not that it ever was a secret still it is good to hear it reiterated by a seemingly secular, modernist poster with “liberal” and "democratic" pretensions.

How do these people manage to reconcile their modernity and democratic pretensions, in their relentless fight with Islamism, with their own belief that they, a very small fraction of humankind, have a very special relationship, a "covenant", with GOD no less? Whereas Islamists at their most extreme only pretend that they are obeying the commands of GOD, everybody's GOD.

How do they dare pretend being egalitarian , anti discriminatory and equitable if they believe that they are the beneficiaries of GODLY favours and special treatment that empowers them to kill, steal and usurp and in general discriminate ....morally, ethically and religiously?
(Israel Shahak, the fearless and great eye opener, had many interesting things to say about the daily, worldly political and other implications that this, their, obsession with their privileged position with their God .
It seemingly includes the
"right"(?), privilege(?),special dispensation(?) to kill indiscriminately all their enemies (which is practically everybody except their own), both non combatant civilians and combatants in war time AND peace time! A fine non discriminatory touch.)

How can they deny being "racist" if GOD , no less, favoured them as a "race" with extra rights and super prerogatives?

Not that it is a new revelation, this special relationship with GOD, but it is extremely pertinent to keep it in mind when dealing with the "chosen people"!
Herein lays THEIR presumed JUSTIFICATION for the murderous, aggressive ,marauding and usurping nature of their Zionism: their special covenant with their GOD!


omar ibrahim baker - 10/19/2007

"How can they deny being "racist" if (they believe that )GOD , no less, favoured them as a "race" with extra rights and super prerogatives?"


omar ibrahim baker - 10/19/2007

Mr Friedman
You are at a real loss; you fail to accept the obvious that 1+1=2.

You contend:
". They claim that God's covenant with Jews ...".

*Is it not a Jewish belief that Jews and only Jews have a covenant with God?
*Is there any other "nation", "race" or "religious community" that has a similar or equiyvalent covenant with God, irrespective of what that covenant grants or withholds?
*Does NOT the belief that they have a covenant with GOD, no less, impart in its belivers a sense of being special, favoured, privileged and superior?

How can anybody (nation, race etc) endowd with this unique and EXCLUSIVE GODLY covenant resist the feeling and the belief that he/it is special, extraordinary and superior to the non similarly endowed!

Is not that RACISM ??

Shahak's whole point , as I understand it, is that this very belief inevitably led, forced ( pre PR) Jewish scholars consciously , subconsciously and unconsciously to the classification of humankind into JEW and GOYIM and the absurd judgements thereon and the no less absurd "morality" that necessarily sprung therefrom to justify it.

However had this belief ,in a special and exclusive relationship, and covenant, with GOD been a solely inter Jew spiritual, mystical concept with no worldly, mundane, implications one could safely ignore it.

But it is NOT; it does affect others, the GOYIM, in what is dearest to them: their very lives (consider the death penalty which they are liable to face BUT not the Jew for the very same crime according to the Halakha) ,their livihood , nations and homelands!

Shahak analysis of the mind set that led to racist Zionism was most perceptive and axiomatic in that :1+1=2!


omar ibrahim baker - 10/19/2007

Mr Friedman
I note that you have entirely avoided the point of my post, made in respose to your's , namely:

"*Is it not a Jewish belief that Jews and only Jews have a covenant with God?
*Is there any other "nation", "race" or "religious community" that has a similar or equiyvalent covenant with God, irrespective of what that covenant grants or withholds?
*Does NOT the belief that they have a covenant with GOD, no less, impart in its belivers a sense of being special, favoured, privileged and superior?

How can anybody (nation, race etc) endowd with this unique and EXCLUSIVE GODLY covenant resist the feeling and the belief that he/it is special, extraordinary and superior to the non similarly endowed!

Is not that RACISM ??"

Is it that you concede that Racism is an unseparable attribute of Judaism/Zionism?


omar ibrahim baker - 10/19/2007

What is it that makes the USA and particularly Israel so hell bent on demonizing an Iran with Ahmedi Nejjad, or equivalent, as its duly elected President?

-Is it his public declarations re the Zionist entity?

The answer is "unlikely"!
"Worst” things have been said and more drastic proclamations made that DID NOT evoke the utter enmity expressed by both.

-Is it the Islamic nature of the regime he fronts and co chairs?

-Equally "unlikely", the USA having had, with full Israeli approval, a very close and friendly relation, verging on strategic alliance, with a no less Islamic regime for decades.

I contend that the answer lays in two major geopolitical developments;
1- Iran is the first NON ARAB nation to reject publicly the very concept of a west oriented and affiliated Jewish state at the epicenter of the region.ie in Palestine
This development in Iranian policy, the erstwhile strategic ally of Israel under the Shah, foretells a regional, Trans Arab, rejection of Israel’s very existence.

2-Iran is totally dedicated to acquiring nuclear technology for peaceful and other potential uses.
By acquiring nuclear technology Israeli ambitions for regional supremacy are not only challenged but decidedly frustrated.
The symbiosis of 1 and 2 above leads to :
The reconsideration of Israel's very existence as a Western oriented and affiliated exclusively or predominantly Jewish state (1) while nullifying its ultimate military capability to impose itself militarily on the region (2).


omar ibrahim baker - 10/19/2007

Mr Shcherban
I agree; US Middle East policy is NOT identical to Israel’s, it is actually totally subservient to it and has been since 1973.

As the master Israel has allowed itself the political lee way, the luxury, of NOT openly supporting all US political moves, as is the case re Iraq, while the USA has docilely supported all Israeli movements and consistently towed the Israeli policy line in all its twists and turns, as for the so called “peace process” and the issue of Settlements, etc etc.

A thoughtful review of US policy for the last decades will clearly show that 1973 was the turning point in its Middle East strategic outlook.
Ever since and starting with Kissinger the USA opted to replicate unreservedly all Israeli policies and support all Israeli designs and ambitions .

Thence date Israeli gradual withdrawal, with unflagging American support, from any meaningful pursuit of a regional "peaceful" ie political settlement and the virtual demise of any non fringe Israeli peace movement.

With its total adoption of Israeli policies and unreserved support of Israeli regional ambitions the USA has become an accessory to Israeli expansionist and domineering designs while putting a virtual end to the possibility of any conceivably DURABLE regional settlement.

Israel’s covert and overt precondition for a regional settlement which substantially evolved from total and unconditional US support was, still is, unconditional ARAB and Palestinian total submission is now the USA's.

That is acceptable only to those regimes that unquestioningly obey US instructions while simultaneously undermining those very same regimes and paving the way to power for their and Israel's and the USA's nemesis; the radical Islamist movement.

Historically I believe the USA DID neither Israel nor the USA and friends any service.
If any thing at all it did render the radical Islamist movement a huge service.


N. Friedman - 10/13/2007

Omar,

You stated "Is it not a Jewish belief that Jews and only Jews have a covenant with God?"

I answered that. It is not true. The Jewish position is that Jews do not have the only covenant with God. The Jewish position is that Jews have a covenant with God but that covenant is different from the Muslim or Christian covenant.


N. Friedman - 10/12/2007

Omar,

No, Omar, you have not understood the Jewish position at all. Rather, you have stated the Muslim position about non-Muslims.

The Jewish position is that non-Jews can be considered righteous in the eyes of God and, hence, at the end of days, be among those in the world to come.

The Muslim position is that only Muslims can be saved. Such is also the most common Christian position.

The Jewish position is that Judaism is the true religion. But, it accepts the view that non-pagan religions are valid. That is rather similar to the Muslim position.

Where Judaism differs sharply from Islam is that the Jewish position is that Judaism is not the property of all mankind, only for Jews. In that regard, Judaism is like Hinduism. The Islamic position is that Islam is the property of all mankind; hence the need to make war on others to spread Islamic rule to non-believers. The Islamic position is closer to the Christian position except that Christianity does not generally sanction violence to spread Christian rule; however, Christians have done so anyway.

With due respect, Omar, Shahak's qualifications to address Judaism are akin to the view of my position to pontificate about Eskimo religion.


N. Friedman - 10/12/2007

Arnold,

Sorry, I merely kept the header being used. I gave no thought to the matter. Again, Sorry.


Arnold Shcherban - 10/12/2007

Mr. Friedman,

Please, stop indicating my name every time you send message to Omar.
I had no debate with you or him about religious and other issues of Faith, just about logic of economic, social, and historical facts.


N. Friedman - 10/12/2007

Omar,

They do not claim that God favors Jews as a race. They claim that God's covenant with Jews is not invalid and that Jews have a right to a homeland. Recall, you are claiming that Palestinian Arabs have a right to a homeland. Is your claim, therefor, racist?


N. Friedman - 10/12/2007

Omar,

Claiming that Jews have a right to a homeland is not a racist sentiment. How do you claim that such people are racist and all the other things you allege?

As for their beliefs, religion is an irrational thing. Belief that there is only one God and that Muhammad is his Prophet is irrational. So, is belief in Jesus being the Son of God who sacrificed himself for mankind. And, so is the belief of all other religions. None can be reconciled with modernity. The point, at least in the US, is to preclude the establishment of a religion (or a group of religions) as THE religion of the US and to permit people to believe and worship as they may prefer.


N. Friedman - 10/11/2007

One correction:

Truman was not long before Israel's founding. However, he was a Restorationist.


N. Friedman - 10/11/2007

Omar,

Much as you may not like to read it, but Restorationism was an important Christian movement, in what is now the US, long prior to the birth of political Zionism and continuing to the time of modern Israel's founding. Restorationism's origins, in fact, precede the founding of the United States.

Restorationism views America as the new Israel and Jews as possessing a valid relationship with God, with a right to the restoration of their homeland, Israel.

Among the believers in Restorationism, long before Israel's time, were numerous president of the United States and a large number of major politicians. The names Woodrow Wilson and Harry Truman may possibly be familiar to you. They were not the first, by the way. Perhaps you were not aware, since your theory of history ignores the rise of the Restorationism movement.

Christian Zionism is directly connected with the Restorationism movement and owes its intellectual origins to that movement. Such people hold that the Jewish covenant with God has not been wholly annulled and hence Jews need not wander the world permanently, as is a common Christian view, but are instead entitled to a homeland which is Israel. They see Jews ultimately converting to Christianity - at least if they are to be saved a the coming Armageddon.

Given your prior posts on these pages, I find it odd that you now present an egalitarian argument. Your prior expressed views appear, at least to me, to favor Palestinian supremacy under the aegis of the Islamist movement now playing an ever growing role in Palestinian Arab society - and, to be more precise, Arab and Muslim society more generally. Maybe I am wrong but I do not think so.

You are certainly free to favor Palestinian Arabs. Positing that you would offer true equality to Jews or, for that matter, Christians in historic Palestine serves well a propaganda purposes - whether or not it is your purpose.

I am free to point out in reply that there have been no examples of Muslim societies in which non-Muslims have been permitted genuine equality. That is a fact. And, certainly, the degree of rights today for non-Muslims in Muslim countries is not remotely one of equality and is, to note, becoming worse and worse. In fact, the deterioration that has occurred is causing substantial flight of Christians out of Muslim countries. And, that deterioration coincides with renewed emphasis in Muslim societies on religion playing an important role in the governance of a country including in its laws.

Talk is cheap, Omar. Why would Israeli Jews opt for a situation where there is no realistic possibility that they would be treated as remote equals with some political rights? Is Hamas offering equality? It is, at present, treating its Christian subject to horrendous oppression and people are fleeing. What message does that send to the Israelis? Certainly, it is not one of any coming equality.


Arnold Shcherban - 10/10/2007

Are you punning me, Omar?
"Totally subservient" makes it "identical", at the least, in the spirit of current discussion.

To be extermely brief and sketchy that's what the situation is:
The great influence of Israeli lobby
in this country has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt officially and non-officially on practically all levels of the US governments for about 30 years by now. It is also true that this influence has increased to a large extent under the last White House administration.
However, the major reason many honest (to differentiate them from antisemits and other racist/religious ideologues) folks totally conflate American and Israeli Middle East policies is because the strategists - the creators of the Pan Americana plan -realized long ago that by skillfully playing out the Israeli-Arab conflict they can keep (more or less) in check nationalist and democratic movements, while promoting and supporting autocratic
and dictatorship regimes in Islamic countries of that economically and, therefore, politically most important region of the world.

For the corporate America - the real masters of the American internal and external policies - a profit, especially a huge one, was always and still is a King.
They really don't care about the ideological, political, or social orientation of the ones they can use to get the King.
Whether those used ones are well-known criminals, bloody dictators, genocidal maniaks, fascists or communists, religious fanatics or atheists, do not really matter.
However, in modern times (second half of 20th century and nowadays) they cannot completely ignore either
the achievements of the modern civilization or international community in the moral, legal, and humanistic spheres.
So they developed an unprecedented by scale and variety propaganda machine in history, which loyaly (remember the profits) and consistently falsifies major underlined causes of their actions
within their own country and abroad (being superpowerful, they are mortals too).
Since Middle East is where huge profits come to those corporate masters and to practically completely subservient to them politicians (Republicans and Democrats alike) they don't have to be heavily persuaded to back up Israel in the most of its policies
towards well-oiled Islamic countries.
Of course, the US is not alone in this world and those masters are still just imperfect human beings. Thus, it is no surprise that they occasionally overplay their hand, causing this or that international and internal disaster and inviting some harm on themselves.

No question, there are other important historical, cultural, and social reasons for the discussed US-Israel phenomenon, but the one indicated (but not originated) here is the main one.
one.


N. Friedman - 10/10/2007

Arnold,

Being the honorable person I take you to be and, to some extent, budding into your conversation with Professor Eckstein, I have some thoughts here for you to consider.

On the one hand, we are addressing an issue which, if Iran really nears obtaining nuclear weapons, she will likely be attacked a long time before she is ready - assuming, for the moment, that she has bad intentions - to use them. So, in a sense, the question you ask is moot.

The real questions here are whether Iran would, if she could, attack any of her neighbors or Israel and whether Iran is, whatever justification she may or may not really have, working toward that end.

My answer to the first question is "Yes." The policy of a theocracy where the religion takes itself to be the property of all mankind (e.g. Christianity and Islam) will tend to be expansive. In the case of Islam, the issue is not only one covered by the above notion but, more importantly, one of both explicit theology and law, which dictate that war to spread Islamic rule, whenever conditions allow, is required. In other words, if Iran is ruled by a government dedicated to its stated principles, it will tend to be not only imperial in outlook but will, whenever it can, tend toward acting on those principles.

On the second question, the best I can say is that Iran's rulers have sounded rather bellicose, most particularly toward Israel and have taken the sort of steps taken by countries in the 20th Century to create a political climate that would allow for such actions. Again: the issue here is not whether Iran would be justified in what it may be working to accomplish. The issue is to understand what Iran is doing, just as it is to understand what the US, among other countries, are doing.

As for actual capacity to attack, I leave it to military experts to judge Iran's capacity and note that Islam has not, historically, been a suicide pact taken collectively although there has been extraordinary willingness for individuals to die in the name of Islam. But, I also note the views expressed by some experts on the region that Iran's leaders consider Iran itself to be expendable so long as Islam is advanced.


Arnold Shcherban - 10/9/2007

The answer to your question is NO, as far as it concerns the bet I offered to you.
Of course, as I've forseen, you would use any unreasonable excuse to avoid the bet.

By attack with military forces, as any man in good faith would understand it, I certainly meant the
WAR with or without occupation, i.e. like the US military forces attacked Iraq in 2003, or as Israeli military forces attacked Arab forces in 1967, or as military forces of several Arab countries attacked Israel in 1972, or just any just single nuclear bomb/weapon (what experts call WMD) attack from air, water or ground on Israeli or American territory made by Iranian governmental forces prior to any Israeli or US attack onto Iranian territory.

If determining wars by using your cretiria "who armed whom", then, say the past Iraq-Iran war would be called US-USSR war (with the US being the agressor, since it had armed Saddam Hussein's Iraq) or recent Israeli-Lebanon war would be called US-Iran war (with many other coming to mind.)
And certainly, I did not meant the way Iraq attacked the US on 9/11 by cooperating with Al-Qaeda.

Being NOT a liar and a cheat, but a man of, at least, ideological integrity you have just two alternatives: either accept the bet or admit that Iran is not a mortal threat to Israel or to any Western power, including the US, and will not be for years to come, as you, some others on this site,
and the official Israeli and US propaganda scream about.
Otherwise, you logically are what
I and some others on this site think you are.


N. Friedman - 10/9/2007

Even more amusing, Art, is that Peter has become the October 9, 2007 at 5:15 PM bot. I wonder what happened to the dating of his posts.


art eckstein - 10/9/2007

Dear N,

Most amusing. Especially the bit about the bot-program.


best,

Art


N. Friedman - 10/9/2007

Art,

I am not going to speculate on why people make the arguments they make.

I shall note, however, that Omar's argument in question fits, at least in part, into the pattern that might be called, they could not have beat us on their own. Many people who make such arguments do so, perhaps, on traditional notions common in the Muslim regions that Jews are contemptible but also hapless. Hence, if Jews beat out Arab Muslims, it must be do to some more capable party providing assistance.

In any event, I chose merely to address the fact that he is mistaken. US policy was not overwhelmingly pro-Israel but, rather, directed toward bring Egypt into the US fold in order to counter the USSR. Such fact ought to be apparent to anyone who notices that the settlement of the Yom Kippur War involved Israel ceding land it had gained but Egypt retaining it. So much for the overwhelming support argument.

In the case of Peter's arguments, I cannot find much of a pattern consistently followed. Imagine, if you will, a bot program designed to make the anti-Israel side look good by spouting readily refutable arguments.

In any event, I prefer not to label people, as I have noted to you, but rather to respond to the arguments presented, whatever I may privately think.


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

This article is well-written but offers little new, and neglects several key aspects of this issue. A number of key differences between Hitler, et. al., and A-jad are accurately noted, but not the arguably most important one: A-jad is not wildly popular with the Iranian public. Unlike Nazism which seemed new and exciting in 1932 Europe, the "Islamic Revolution" in Iran is now 28 years old, corrupt, and boring, and has a lousy track record of economic achievement for Iranians, millions of which now live outside the country in exile.

More seriously, the article fails to address the international origins of A-jad's ascendency. Of course, the massive popular support for his "reform" predecessor Khatami had faded considerably, due to the latter's' failure to achieve much of anything, but it was not foreordained that there would be a sharp swing back to fundamentalist extremism as a result. The resurgence of radical Islam in Iran is clearly and strongly connected to the American chickenhawks' frightful disaster in neighboring Iraq, an outrageous fiasco tailor-made for exploitation by a fanatical Islamist-nationalist like A-jad.

So, A-jad is a dangerous demagogue who cannot be appeased. This, or the fact that the sun rises in the East, or that grass is green in Springtime, is supposed to surprise or move us?

The author writes as though America were on the brink of electing (say) Dennis Kucinich as president and in urgent need of a wakeup call about the dangers of excessive pacifism.

The really key issues are completely untouched here:

1. How in the Heck can we possibly reverse the disastrous acceleration- partly if not mainly due to neo-con incompetence- of Iran's drive towards nuclear weapons?

2. Especially when those deceitful and crooked neo-con incompetents are still in charge of the executive branch in Washington and blundering away while the spineless Congress sleepwalks?




Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

I agree with you, MR. F. that it is a "real dilemma." That is why I think the article falls short: it seems to imply that the main need is to raise a hue and cry about A-jad and about how he "must be opposed and his regime pressured."

Well, we HAD a lot of warning messages (and a lot of scaremongering and hype) about Saddam five years ago, and where did that get us? The biggest disaster in American foreign policy history. The problem was not the failure to oppose Saddam. We had been doing that for a long time (for years after Reagan and Rummy propped him up). The problem was the failure to realize that HOW Saddam was dealt with was even more important than whether. We now have a situation in Iraq that on almost any measure is much worse for America's long term national security than before. Our military power is being sucked down a neo-con rat hole, Al Qaeda is winning, stability in the Mideast has plummeted from its already low levelz and A-jad is going great guns with his nuke drive. The American public has its head in the sand still in many ways, but I seriously doubt it will fall for the same neo-con crap on Iran as we had on Iraq regardless of whether some first-class jackass like Podhertz (see another current HNN page) is handling the BS sound bites) or not. Your guess is as good as mine, but I would say we will not attack Iran and they will get nuclear weapons, and we are going to have to lump it. Pax Americana - a nice idea (sort of) while it lasted (not long in the butter fingers of the neo-con chickenhawks.

As for our friend Mr. E, his post is the usual mish mash of kitchen sink history, questionable conclusions, and deceit-based adhominens. The factual accounting of the the fall of Khatami is interesting and informative but disproves none of my points.


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

NF, The assessment that Iraq was the worst blunder in US foreign policy history is that of Post reporter Ricks and many other knowledgeable observers, not just me. I would agree that one ought to add the qualifier, "so far."

Upon reflection, you may be able to understand why I decline to "consider" Eckstein "correct" when he spouts typically lazy and stupid lies about my wanting to "blame everything on the Americans, as usual." I am not even blaming everything on the minute fraction of Americans who adhere to the atrocious arrogance, ignorance, crookedness and hypocrisy known as "neo-conservatism."

The neo-con "cakewalk" started in March, 2003.

A-jad was an almost complete unknown when he became mayor of Tehran in May, 2003.

He became president of Iran only in 2005 long after tens of millions of Americans dumber (though less rude and dishonest) than Eckstein voted to elect (not reelect) W in 2004.
I don't "blame everything" on them either, though, especially since some of them have been willing since then to confess their errors.

This timeline hardly suggests American policy (e.g. AWOL Bush's Paper Tigerism) was irrelevant to the resurgence of fanatical demagoguery in Iran.

Despite Eckstein's typically crude misattributions, I made it clear that domestic politics were in fact (not just in Gestalt) a central factor making possible the rise of A-jad. A U.S., under a Gore or a McCain, that had not gone off half-cocked to waste its wad in Iraq, would, however, have been a powerful deterrent against the selection of a rabid hot-head like A-jad.


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

For Eckstein to nitpick theoretically inconsistent phrasings of other commenters on this website is the height of hypocrisy.

My position has been a consistent one, and I do not dance to Eckstein's litmus test of Likudnik political correctness to revise it: Since the days of the Shah, there has been a secular populism and an Islamic nationalism at odds with each other in Iran. The essential throttle on democracy since the fall of the Shah has not been rigged elections but rigged governmental power. Khatami was elected in the late 1990s by overwhelming and genuine popular vote (says the New York Times) because after years of theocratic failure, mismanagement, and oppression, the masses had had enough. For whatever reason, however, Khatami was unable to break through the clerics' fetters, and his reform movement later sputtered. This cleared the way for SOMETHING new. It did NOT mean that a demagogic, anti-Semitic, hatemonging, apocalyptic raving barbarian like A-jad was inevitable. A-jad has gotten as far as he has and the way he has, because the US, under the neo-con fools, has become a paper tiger, capable (during a brief period of post 9-11 madness) of launching an idiotic and massively bungled nation-building exercise which has turned Iraq into the hell-hole of the region, but -under the loudmouth but tenderfoot neo-cons- utterly incapable of leading an effective international effort against Iran's illegal nuclearilization. The phenomenal incompetence of the Israelis under Olmert in Lebanon has also been a tremendous encouragement to A-jad. The Likudcowards know that their thousand eyes for one eye and in advance barbarism cannot work against Iran, and A-jad knows that they know it. Ultimately, their only truly credible threat is that of nuclear retaliation and this gives them not much of a moral leg to stand on in denying Iran the same doomsday option.

Arnold, your idea is a good one, but to function properly a bet of that sort requires at least a modicum of honesty on both sides, not just honesty on one side only. Or an iron-clad third party monitor.


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

I have looked into a possibility prompted by this remark:

Re: So what? (#114331)
by N. Friedman on October 7, 2007 at 12:11 PM

"...such articles do not cover every imaginable topic."

Namely, that this article might somehow be a non-representative fragment of a longer and more insightful study.

No such luck.

I went to the website of "GLORIA" which author Rubin heads. "GLORIA" is an Israeli think-tank of undisclosed origins and a rather strange orientation: It is neither about Israel nor for Israeli audiences. The "international affairs" it treats are almost exclusively focused on the Mideast, but elephants in the room (Israeli policy and politics) get very scant attention.

Rubin himself seems to be a prolific and lively writer with a slight historical bent and a touch of humor.
But, there is really no there there, in terms of usable suggestions re how America might inhibit nuclear proliferation in general, or in Iran in particular.

This article is verbatim the same as one appearing on GLORIA. There are more articles there by Rubin and cataloged under "Iran", but they ultimately offer little more than the same sort of informed but not very practical admonition to be fearful. One of them uses Monty Python lines. Another is all about Harry Potter.


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

Mr. Eckstein produces a trivial detail about Americans (that Kerry and Bush both had low college GPAs) yet wants to suggest that internal machinations in Iran are more important to the rise of A-jad than US policy. It is a rather pointless brief because

(a) clearly both domestic and international factors were important and a reasonable argument could be made either way

(b) I never "ignored" Iranian domestic affairs, nor tried to "blame everything" on Americans, no matter how many times Eckstein trots out these straw men for another beating.

(c) My point has not been that Rubin gave too little weight to US influence, but that he failed to address the issue at all.

(d) This is not a discussion amongst members of Iran's "Guardian Council" of Islamic clerics and lawyers. America's policy (and I guess at least three of us are Americans) cannot usefully focus on what that Council ought to have done in past, but must necessarily be more concerned about what America can and should do in the future.


The real issue is thus, as Mr. Friedman suggested, a real dilemma. There probably is no good strategy, only a choice among degrees of poor ones. But, relying on fear and disregarding the question of how to act upon such fear, is a recipe for more blunders of the type made recently in Iraq.

We have hear the second HNN article in as many weeks concerning A-jad. Both from the section entitled "Roundtrip: Historians' Take", neither written by a historian (HNN's fine print says: "On occasion this page also includes political scientists, economists, and law professors who write about history.")

The first, by Alan Dershowitz, used the occasion of A-jad's Columbia visit to "explode" his myth of "Palestians had nothing to do with Holocaust" by propagating an even more outrageous contrary myth about Palestinians being major players in the Holocaust

See http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/43222.html

The second piece, on this page, reviews well-known reasons for being fearful of A-jad's policies but offers barely a hint of a remedy.


Should America swing more to the Sunni side in Iraq in order to better counter the pro-Iran Shias?

Should the Bush administration finally stop being a door mat for the Israeli government and press them for a deal with Abbas?

Should we propose a nuclear-free Mideast, and press the Israelis to give up their nukes in return for an inspection regime to prevent any other Mideast power from acquiring them?

Should we reinstitute the draft, apply it to disgraced elderly chickenhawk ex-members of the Bush administration, and try a new surge in the Mideast?

Should we get tough with Russia and China in order to press for sanctions with a real bite?

After Bush and Cheney are convicted of treason, removed from office, and forced to kiss his boots, should Hans Blix and his inspectors be sent into Iran?

Should America put a new anti-terrorism tax on Mideast oil guzzling SUVs?

Should America hire more Farsi speaking analysts at the State Department?

Should we start building bomb shelters and prepare for a new cold war with Iran?

Should we try to get COMPETENT officials to establish better links to Iranian opposition movements?

Should we ban all production of and traffic in fissionable materials worldwide even for "peaceful" purposes ?

Should we pull out of Iraq, help the Shias take over as we go, and get the Iranians as involved as possible, in order to saddle them with our broken pottery barn there?

Should the US Congress stop pretending that the Israeli hardliners and their US mouthpieces speak for all Israelis, let alone American interests?

Should we crackdown on worldwide arms trafficking?

Should we more forcefully support liberalizers within Islam?

Should we put less R&D into ethanol, stem cell research, or computer games, and more into missile defense?

Should we stop pretending that this website is about history, or diversity of views?

Should we all just cultivate our gardens instead?


None of these questions are addressed.
Instead it is suggested that we need to be even more scared of A-jad than before and hope that America will take a vague hard line against him. In other words more of the same unworkable and failed policies already tried by the Cheney administration over the past two years.


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

...students chanted as they marched towards the campus gates" of Tehran University according to this article from Reuters just in:

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSBLA82748320071008?feedType=RSS&;feedName=worldNews

Iranian students call president "dictator" during scuffle
Mon Oct 8, 2007 8:33am EDT

By Edmund Blair

TEHRAN (Reuters) - More than 100 students scuffled with police and hardline supporters of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Monday on Tehran University campus and chanted "Death to the dictator" outside a hall where the Iranian president spoke...



One of many examples of salient features of this issue transcending the fear-centric paradigm focused on here.

See also:

http://hnn.us/roundup/archives/1/2007/9/#43105

"There is, in fact, remarkably little substance to the debates now raging in the United States about Ahmadinejad. His quirky personality, penchant for outrageous one-liners, and combative populism are hardly serious concerns for foreign policy."


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

The "worst" judgment (and the possibility of some silver lining some day appearing would be covered under "so far") has only partly to do with the encouragement of Islamists due to the Cakewalk Fiasco. The far bigger disaster of "crying wolf" and the long blunder-ridden quagmimre which has followed is on future capabilities of the American military and its international credibility. Who today can honestly tell a young 18-25 year old that he would be helping America by volunteering for military service under commander chief AWOL Bush?
The chickenhawks have exploited, cheated and miserably lied to a generation of young Americans, and their memories will haunt this country for decades to come.


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

Worst decision, Mr. F.
Not worst outcome.

The most brilliant minds of 1919 did not foresee the rise of fascism, the Holocaust, etc.

In sharp contrast, the US debacle in Iraq was widely predicted in its magnitude if not its details. There was, for instance, a major BBC program around the time of the Cakewalk launch, discussing the disastrous British attempt to run the place in the 1920s.

The blunders of 1919 were unfortunate and misguided. The blunders of 2002-03 were supreme stupidity, cowardice and hypocrisy.

I do, however, think it likely that we have only seen the tip of the iceberg of the cost of the Iraq disaster, for instance, my ignored prior point of the long term future of military strength, credibility, and recruitment.

Of course prior presidents and Congresses blundered too, and W inherited his fair share of problems from his predecessors. The Iran problem today is not unrelated to the '53 coup, for example. But W will be leaving the country far worse off the before he came into office. That idiotic aircraft carrier stunt will go into the history books along with the collapsing twin towers. This is his legacy even if the spineless Congress played a "significant" if not "central" role. It will be a tough task of history distortion to find some other president more associated with wrecking America.



Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

No "games," involved here, NF. I was simply -as I said- considering and investigating a possibility which came to mind as a result of reading your prior comment. I was not replying directly to your point in that comment. I addressed THAT already in my opening post on this page


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

We are, or at least I have been, talking about decisions known at the time to intelligent observers to reflect poor judgment, neglect, disregard for risks, etc.

The current comparison is the 1919 Versailles Treaty vs the 2002-03 blank check and unilateral ill-planned Iraq invasion.

Both were bad decisions by the above criteria.

Which was worse as a decision?

The second: because the severe negative consequences were so much more obvious, and I would add, because there were clearly workable alternatives in 2002-03 unlike in 1919.

If you have studied the World War I peace negotiations, as I have, you will know that they involved a fiendishly difficult diplomatic tangle of knots. Wilson was triangulating between Lloyd George, Clemenceau, all the other parties in Paris, and US senators who would vote on ratification.

Blunders were made, as Keynes (more than Churchill) is famous for pointing out at the time. Nobody, however, predicted Hitler, Stalin, or 60 million dead in a much wider second world war (which of course happened for a number of reasons in addition to the Versailles treaty).

The 2003 decision of Cheney and Bush, sanctioned by Congress but obviously not with much critical examination, was of a radically different nature. They made it clear, despite some BSing along the way, that they did not give a hoot for what other world leaders thought. And there was no agreement necessary -unlike in Versailles- between countries. Bush had the constitutional authority to ruin US foreign policy, and did in rapid blunder-filled fashion as widely predicted.

Bush is sometimes thought of as "Wilsonian," but Wilson though seriously flawed was brilliant and far-sighted in foreign policy. Bush acted with amazing pigheaded stupidity in 2002-03. There is basically no comparison in the two sets of decision-making even though bad long term consequences followed in both cases.

Of course, lots of unpredictable things could still happen, as you have suggested. The final results on Iraq are not yet known in detail. But I would undertake an Arnold-like bet at 10X the odds against W ever getting the Nobel Peace Prize for anything related to Iraq, as Wilson did for the League of Nations which he spearheaded in 1919.


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

Go to Rubin's website and read his other Iran articles, and you may revise your forecast that the US will likely "increase" its influence in the Mideast.


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

Because he had violated UN resolutions on WMD elimination, Saddam before the Cakewalk had no control of his airspace, little control over his oil revenues, and by late 2002 was forced to submit to intrusive and extensive UN inspections. (A handy role model for Iran today, had neo-con deceivers not trashed it). If you think that situation in early 2003, which no one called good, was BETTER than the mess today, ask one of the millions of Iraqi refugees who has fled since 2003.

My dad also predicted US failure in Vietnam around 1963 or so. So did LBJ himself. But war had been raging there for years already. America was not the aggressor as with Iraq. There was no Vietnamese fundamentalism stoked around the rest of the world as the result of our debacle in Indochina. Most of the world's oil was not in SE Asia commanding our attention. No neighboring countries were using our Vietnam blunder as an excuse to go nuclear (this is the sentence relevant to the topic of the page). We could pack up and leave, and switch to the volunteer army afterwards. And, most importantly, in 1964 there was no prior Vietnam to serve as a warning (as there was in 2003).

Reading history forwards not backwards:

At the time of Gulf of Tonkin, Americans were hoping for a Korea-like containment of communism in the North, preserving a pro-American South. The image of Saigon 1975 with bodies hanging from helicopters was NOT in government leaders' minds in 1963. As it was in 2003.

The Europeans of 1919 were thinking in terms of an armistice and reparations and a return to a moderately-revised status quo ante like in 1871. They did not have crystal balls in 1919 showing them what would happen in Dunkirk, Coventry, Stalingrad, Auschwitz and Dresden in the 1940s.

On the eve of the Cakewalk of 2003, people were predicting a repeat of Vietnam, of Beirut, of Mogadishu, of Britain's experience in Iraq in the '20s. America gave one of its least experienced presidents one of the biggest blank checks ever to mishandle one of the trickiest foreign policy challenges of all time. Steeped in their own crooked arrogance, the neo-cons were deaf to common sense, and will be damned in the history books for this no matter.

There is a possibility that magically, somehow, the "Midas touch" will reverse and Iraq will improve in coming months. It is a very slim possibility. There is a greater possibility, but by no means a certain one, that something worse than Iraq could happen under W's successor. Unless and until such developments transpire, however, it is certainly not "dumb" to conclude, as Thomas Ricks has, that W's blundering into Iraq was "the worst US foreign-policy decision ever taken."


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

Well, read him again with comprehension this time, and reconsider your dubious conclusion above that with a nuclear Iran, US influence over the Mideast will somehow still "increase."


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

How one rates official US decisions on whether and how to invade, occupy and intervene in Iraq in 2003 and thereafter, on the all-time historical scoreboard, are tangents to the topic of the page.

I and a number of informed historians and observers think that this fiasco amounts to the biggest foreign policy error ever made in US history. (I have already outlined the reasons why above, and in more than sufficient detail, given the tangentiality to this page). Many others would disagree with this characterization. It is not cut and dry, and it has little bearing on the main issue of the page. Good arguments can be made either way. There are, however, no logical or historical grounds for pre-emptively characterizing one or the other side as "dumb" or "moronic."


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

The "bet" is not even agreed to yet, and already Eckstein is trying to cheat.

Hezbollah does NOT = Iran's own "military forces"

Summer of 2006 is NOT within "the next, at least, five years"

It is difficult to do business with tricksters and liars, and bad enough having to deal with them in foreign countries like Iran.


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

I am not convinced that W in his heart of hearts ever really believed in the "policy" he "set' either.

We all have our pet peeves. Rubin's here is that people are sufficiently frightened yet by A-jad, and never mind what to do if and when they are sufficiently afraid. Mine here is that A-jad is more of threat to us than he would be due to America being unnecessarily emasculated and humiliated in next door Iraq.

I did not have the dubious privilege of voting against A-jad in elections where below-average IQ voters preferred to vote for him. I did have that disappointing opportunity with W.


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

Poor memory and laziness: Not a good combination. Forget (that should be easy enough) your "recollection" and go here


http://gloria.idc.ac.il//articles/2007/rubin/02_05.html

to read what Rubin said eight months ago about the prospects for the Mideast power relations in the medium term in Iran goes nuclear:

"The first and most obvious situation would be a big boost for Iran's campaign to be the leading power in the Persian Gulf or even in the whole region. For many countries and movements, having a patron with nuclear weapons will be incredibly attractive; for even more, having an enemy with them is too scary to resist.

Overnight, Iran will become the most attractive sponsor for political subversion and terrorism in the region. Saudi Arabia will still have money but all those oilfields could--in theory--disappear in a very bright flash if someone in Tehran decided to do so. Is this going to happen? Unlikely. But could the Saudis take that risk by angering Iran? The same applies to all the other small Persian Gulf Arab states. And if Iran has influence in Iraq now, what would it be like if Tehran had nukes?

There is a question that every Arab state would have to ask itself: Can the United States be depended on as a protector? Will America credibly be ready to use its own atomic bombs to counter those of Iran even if it involves killing large numbers of people and getting involved in a terrible, bloody war? The point is that it is not the use of nuclear weapons but a credible willingness to use them--enough to convince rather extremist Iranian leaders--that brings strategic credibility.

If you were a Saudi, Kuwaiti, or Emirati, what would be your choice--to feel secure with an American promise of help or to be safe by yielding to Iranian threats? Suppose, then, that Iran tells Bahrain not to house a U.S. base, or Iraq to kick out American forces, or the Saudis to set an oil price to Iran's liking. Aren't the Gulf Arabs going to yield to their demand? Clear hints are just as effective as rude threats. The nastier the one is who possesses the weapon, the more persuasive the warning.

Then there is the equation's other side. Consider that you are a revolutionary opposition group, Islamist or otherwise, looking for a backer. For such needs, there was Egypt in the 1950s and 1960s, Syria in the 1960s and 1970s, and Iraq in the 1980s and 1990s. In the twenty-first century, however, no one can compete with Iran, as Hizballah and Hamas have already decided.

There will also be long lines in front of the recruiting counters of radical and terrorist groups. They might be wrong in expecting Iran will provide their road to victory but that won't stop them from staging large numbers of ever more daring attacks, convinced that Tehran's superior form of TNT will protect them. Tens of thousands of people will die as a result of their enthusiasm for the cause. And a lot of them might be in Europe.

Do you think that anyone will make peace in the Arab-Israeli conflict if they assume--no matter how wrong they turn out to be--that Israel is going to be either erased by Iran's nuclear weapons or intimidated into massive unilateral concessions by them? Do you believe the West will dare act effectively on any regional crisis in the face of Iranian opposition? Would Turkey protest firmly about Iranian involvement in Kurdish or Islamist subversion at home?

This is only the beginning of the problems arising from Iranian possession of nuclear weapons: a bolder, extremist Iran; coercion of the local, relatively more moderate states; a boost for terrorist and revolutionary groups with an upsurge of violence, and intimidation of the West.

And that's the optimistic scenario, without anyone actually using weapons of mass destruction. Keep this in mind as the crisis unfolds."


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

Yeah Yeah Yeah.

The Israelis and Persians go way back. The Shah's Pappy was pro-Nazi, and probably gestaltingly significantly pro-Holocaust to boot. The Israelis and Iranians conspired to help Oliver North smuggle drugs and subvert US foreign policy in Central America. So what?

Arnold made his point, and made it well, and it sticks despite the smoke and fog being blown around it.


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

America helped stop the Israelis from invading deep into Egypt in '73.

It helped get them to withdraw from Sinai in '79

It did not support mission to invade Lebanon and slaughter of Palestinian refugees there in '82

It got Israel to "turn the other check" in the Gulf War. Daddy Bush later also twisted its arm on settlement expansion in the territories and in going to Madrid to start the negotiations which culminated in Clinton's forced handshake between Rabin and Arafat in '94.

Clinton also encouraged Barak to compromise further than his political constituency approved (albeit to no avail as the negotiations in 1999-2001 were sabotaged by Sharon and Arafat).

The Israel-Lap-Dog policy began with when the current Incompetent president in took office in 2001.


Peter K. Clarke - 10/9/2007

math is not my strong suit


art eckstein - 10/9/2007

Why do powerful people have a fantasy that they have surrendered their power to "the Jews"? Why do they surrender their very sense of power to the Jews?

That is: why would proud Germans, or, nowadays proud Muslims, attribute their lack of power to the power of the Jews? Why not to their own failings? Are the Jews considered so magical that, though they couldn't save themselves from Hitler, somehow they can steal any people's power?

Why would Clarke believe that the power of "real Americans" (in his unforgettable phrase) has somehow been stolen by Jews--when the country is ACTUALLY RUN by Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld (now Gates), Reid and Pelosi?

Clarke seems to have backed off a bit from this craziness now.

Omar's criticism of Clarke comes down to the fact that the U.S. government, in the midst of defeat in Vietnam at the hands of Vietnamese armed with Soviet weapons, was not willing to see its ally Israel destroyed by Arabs armed with Soviet weapons.


art eckstein - 10/9/2007

N.F. , the attribution of enormous secret power to the Jews, used for evil purposes, a Judeo-centric view of the universe and of history, stands at the center of all anti-semitic arguments.

We've certainly seen some excellent examples of this paranoid syndrome on display today.


N. Friedman - 10/9/2007

Omar,

The US supported Israel in that war not as a question of total support for Israel but to advance US interests in, as it turned out, bringing Egypt into the US camp against the USSR.

There was certainly no total support by the US for Israel and the advantage obtained by Israel on the battlefield was taken away in negotiations - of which the US played a major part. Israel, you will recall, withdrew from the Egyptian side of the Suez but Egypt did not withdraw from the Sinai side.

Which is to say, to that extent what you write is contrary to fact.


N. Friedman - 10/9/2007

Omar,

Part of what you write here is so. Except, most importantly, that Israel and the Egyptians did reach a settlement a number of years after the fighting ended.

Also, the Arab side was also replenished by the USSR. So, it was tit for tat, as it were. So, maybe had the USSR not intervened to help the Arab side, Israel might have destroyed the Egyptian army anyway.

Whether the battle would have been a standoff is an open question but that is certainly possible. The decisive thing, from Israel's point of view, that occurred was Sharon's decision to cross into Egypt and march on Cairo. Egypt, as I understand it, did not expect such and were caught off guard and its army all but surrounded. They lacked the ability to alter their plans, something the Israelis proved better at.


A. M. Eckstein - 10/9/2007

Gosh, Peter--on the Mearsheimer and Walt thread a couple of weeks ago you argued over and over that United States government policy towards Israel and the entire Middle East was controlled by "the Israel Lobby". You were contemptuous when I showed that this wasn't true of Congress, nor of the White House. Now you yourself demonstrate that (on your reckoning) up until 2001 it wasn't true of the White House either.

What happened to that sinister, all-powerful "Israel Lobby", Peter?


N. Friedman - 10/9/2007

Peter,

And the evidence for what is in Bush's heart of hearts?

EVIDENCE, PETER. EVIDENCE!!!!


HNN - 10/9/2007

Peter Clarke: Please get in touch with HNN Editor Rick Shenkman: editor@hnn.us

Thanks.


N. Friedman - 10/9/2007

Peter,

You, unfortunately, have found one Rubin article. He writes a regular column where he has said very, very different things than what your article states. Try reading The Jerusalem Post - where his column appears. And, he has said exactly what I said he said. I just do not have the article in front of me to quote.



A. M. Eckstein - 10/9/2007

No answer to this specific question I asked, in response to being called a liar and a cheat.


art eckstein - 10/9/2007

If the israeli government funds and arms to the teeth the Mujahadeen Khalq, the anti-govt guerrillas in Iran, is that not an Israeli attack on Iran, Clarke?


N. Friedman - 10/9/2007

Art,

I think that Arnold was looking forward. If not, he does not count Hezbollah - a convenient out on his part.


N. Friedman - 10/9/2007

Peter,

Rubin has written that, over the years, the US, no matter what it has done, has increased its influence in the Middle East. In fact, he has written, if I recall correctly, that even the Iraq war has increased US influence in the region.


N. Friedman - 10/9/2007

Peter,

There are multiple problems with your point of view. First, there is no common basis to reach a judgment. So, you can look to this factor and I to a different factor. Second, the judgment is premature for obvious reasons already outlined. Third, the decision could not possibly be as bad as that in the Vietnam war which, according to you, was not even believed in by the very person who set the policy.

I do agree with you that this is all tangential to the discussion. But, it does bear consideration in the effort to understand your method of thinking which, in turn, tells me why you see Iran the way you do. That is my point, in the end.


art eckstein - 10/9/2007

First few lines of the post above should read:

And if by the term "attack" A.S. means, say, Iran funding the massive Islamic terrorist organization Hezbollah to the tune of several hundred million dollars a year...


art eckstein - 10/9/2007

And if by the term "attack" A.S. means, says, Iran funding the massive Islamic terrorist organization Hezbollah to the tune of several hundred million dollars a year, one result being that Hezbollah can gain hold of hundreds of missiles, many short range, some medium range, with which it can make thousands of indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israel--well, then, A.S., you ALREADY owe me the $10,000. It happened in the summer of 2006.

Pay up.


N. Friedman - 10/9/2007

Peter,

I am not interested in a discussion of the Vietnam War. Consider, though, that LBJ's decision helped kill 50,000 Americans. That helps makes it a pretty bad decision, all things considered, most especially since it was a pretty futile fight - known by the President beforehand, according to you, to be a loser -, as you admit.

I am also not here to defend Bush and have no interest in doing so. My point is to note that calling it the worst decision in US history is moronic, not to mention premature. So far, there is no reason even to compare it to Vietnam, in terms of being a dumb decision.

But, there is no reason to call the Iraq war a good thing. My only point is that it is not the worst decision in US history.



N. Friedman - 10/8/2007

Arnold,

It all depends on what you mean by attack. If you mean that Iran will send an army to Israel, I agree with you. If you mean that Iran will leave Israel alone, you are likely to lose the bet. If you mean that Iran will nuke Israel, I do not know. That depends on a lot of factors, the most important being who will be the rulers over the course of the next five years.


N. Friedman - 10/8/2007

Peter,

I cannot imagine a dumber comment than what you have written above. I do not see how one can speak of the decision to go to war in Iraq - a minor matter, in the end, no matter what comes of it - with the decision to end WWI leaving Germany undivided.

I note the decision to go to war in Vietnam may be, to some extent, comparable with the Iraq war. Maybe. I recall my father predicting failure in Vietnam in 1963, before the big US buildup. And, he was no policy expert but he was not alone in seeing the failure that occurred.

In Iraq, had we not invaded, the issue would have remained about what to do with a failing containment policy. That was as much of a dilemma as Iran is today. And, Iran would still have been working on the Bomb - or whatever she is doing. Terrorism would still be out of control today. Etc., etc.

The point here is not to exaggerate the extent of the mistakes made. There were no good choices in 2002 or 2003. Only bad ones. And, whatever Bush would have done, it would have come out bad. Why? Consider that everything he touches comes out bad - even when he does the right thing (which is very rare). Perhaps, someday it will be shown that he made a decision to fund a storm-abating experiment which somehow caused Katrina. That is pretty much his luck - the man with the anti-Midas touch.


N. Friedman - 10/8/2007

Peter,

Odd as it may sound to you but I have been reading Rubin for years.


N. Friedman - 10/8/2007

Peter,

No. My point is that the article is not designed to be an exhaustive examination of the topic. It was designed to present a few, well considered points.

You, sir, are playing games. Perhaps, you might write an article that follows up on the points that interest you. By contrast, you criticism of Mr. Rubin amount to harping, perhaps to distract attention to well a considered analysis that goes places you do not want to contemplate.


N. Friedman - 10/8/2007

Peter,

I think the world would be better off understanding the likes of Ahmadinejad than making believe that he and the Iranian regime are harmless. They are not.

And, Dershowitz did not make up history. You, sir, who have not studied the topic of Arab involvement with the Nazis, ought not comment prior to doing some homework.

And, Dershowitz did not say that Palestinian Arabs played a major role. He said their role was significant. Major and significant are two different words with two different meanings. What is claimed - and what the facts show - is that Palestinian Arabs played a significant role in the Holocaust. That fact is so well established that your denial is pretty close to Holocaust denial.

Again: pick up a book before you continue to say idiotic things.




N. Friedman - 10/8/2007

Peter,

There were, in fact, voices related to the Versailles Treaty who predicted disaster. Churchill for one. The same for demanding repayment - again, Churchill, for one. Presumably, there were Americans who saw the problem clearly at the time. After all, there were serious objections that came out of Congress. So, someone saw the matter differently.

Be that as it may, if the impact of a decision is not, in the end, disastrous, then the issue you raise is without any real importance. After all, the purpose of a decision is to impact on the future. So, your view removes that central consideration from determining whether a decision is disastrous. And, that in turn renders your concern rather meaningless.

In the case of Iraq, it is rather unclear what the impact will, in the end, be. I tend to think that it will all prove to be less disastrous than you think - no matter what insanity comes from Iraq. The US will continue to be the world's most powerful country - likely until, if ever, China and/or India catches up. The US will almost certainly remain the most important country in the Middle East - likely for a long time to come. In fact, the influence of the US may increase as the countries in the region may come to need us more than before, for fear of Iran.

Saudi Arabia would still be funding Jihadist ideology even if we had not attacked Iraq. Jihadis would still be blowing themselves up all over the world, even if we had not attacked Iraq - just as they were trying to do and did prior to Iraq. Pakistan and India would likely still be enemies, notwithstanding Iraq. Israel and Palestinian Arabs would not likely have settled their dispute, notwithstanding Iraq. So, your point is merely to place emphasis on your disagreement with the Bushites. But that does not make it the worst decision in US history.

Again, I would not have invaded Iraq. But, I would not call the decision the worst disaster or worst decision in US history. I can think of a lot worse decisions and worse disasters.


Arnold Shcherban - 10/8/2007

Hi Peter,

You see, I could not loose the bet
offered on one simple reason: I knew
that Mr. Eckstein would never accept
it even symbolically, not mentioning
the monetary terms.
He would not risk to be caught with his pants down publicly.
(Besides, I'm sure the US and Israel
have all pieces in place already to strike Iran any time NOW).
And, indeed, so far he silently plays serious intellectual/historian who's far above such a frivolous, non-intellectual offer.
We'll wait to see whether I succeded
to stir him up enough by these comments.


Arnold Shcherban - 10/8/2007

I marginally agree with the first cause you suggested and utterly disagree with the second.
The second major cause (if it has to be two of them) is establishing
complete US control in the region, since Iran remains the only large ship in the strategically most important region of the world (Middle East) that does not follow the superpower cruiser.
It seems, Omar, you completely conflate the US historically proven foreign strategy's imperialistic nature with the interests of the state of Israel. No doubts - in the Middle East they are close - but still not identical.


N. Friedman - 10/8/2007

Peter,

Again, your statement declares the decision the worst. I do not see how that is remotely possible, even if the Iraq war turns worse than it already is.

In the 1920's, when taking a less formalistic attitude regarding money owed to the US by Europeans, the US decided to stand on principle - as in, pay up according to the agreement. That, in turn, tended to make a bad situation worse, so far as placing Germany in a terrible position economically. And, that in turn helped fuel resentment, etc., etc. In my mind, the decisions that led to the rise of the Nazis are all far worse than made by Bush. Then, there was the US role in the Versailles Treaty. Rather bad judgments were made there as well, making that Treaty a big issue in the minds of Germans. That is also a lot worse mistake than Bush made.

What you ought to say - removing the hyperbole - is that you agree with me that the Iraq war was probably not a good move and that, so far, there is nothing to show from it other than a lot of dead bodies.


A. M. Eckstein - 10/8/2007

Gee, I guess those particular Iranian students aren't so enraged by the American policy in Iraq--despite what Clarke himself has written about "Iranians"-- that they are willing to support an islamofascist.

Like I said, Iranian internal politics are complex, and it is simplistic to blame every development--including the election of Ahmedinejad in a rigged election as evidence of Iranian "rage" at the U.S.-- on U.S. policy.


N. Friedman - 10/8/2007

Peter,

I understood that you were repeating what some other people said when you claimed the Iraq war to be the worst in US history. You are good at repeating others.

My point is that such a judgment cannot, in the strict sense of the word, be made - and not merely in the sense that some future judgment may prove more faulty. My point is that we do not know enough yet about the events in Iraq to use the word "worst."

Things may turn out exactly that way. Or, they may not. One can say it has not gone well, thus far. One can say that things will likely stay that way. One can say that, thus far, it seems pretty disastrous.

I am not convinced it is even among the worst decisions. The decisions after WWI that contributed to the rise of the Nazis are in a different league of mistake - but, of course, at the time they did not seem that way.

The decisions by the last several administrations to appease the Islamist buildup were also disastrous decisions. They led to 9/11 - convincing the Islamists that now is there time because the US is weak. The decisions to stood by when the Ayatollahs came to power who, in turn, let Americans be taken hostage were disasters as well - disasters that helped in the rise of the radical Islamists. Reagan's decision to run away after the horror in Lebanon back in the 1980's was also a disastrous decision for the same reason.

The Iraq war would not be my choice and I think it a mistake. But, I am not convinced that there will be no latent good effects from it. And, I am not convinced that it is the worst blunder that has occurred. I am not convinced that the Islamists would have quieted down but for the Iraq War. Perhaps, the opposite would have occurred on the theory that we chose not to take them on. Hard to say what would have happened.


art eckstein - 10/8/2007

Clarke has now returned to his original position:

"This {the failure of Khatami's reform "for whatever reason"] cleared the way for SOMETHING new. It did NOT mean that a demagogic, anti-Semitic, hatemonging, apocalyptic raving barbarian like A-jad was inevitable. A-jad has gotten as far as he has and the way he has, because [NOTE READER--HERE COMES THE REASON NOW!] the US, under the neo-con fools, has become a paper tiger, capable (during a brief period of post 9-11 madness) of launching an idiotic and massively bungled nation-building exercise which has turned Iraq into the hell-hole of the region, but -under the loudmouth but tenderfoot neo-cons- utterly incapable of leading an effective international effort against Iran's illegal nuclearilization."

1. The Guardian Council's ferocious opposition to Khatami, its role in the destruction of the Tehran Spring, its role in the rigging of the elections so that no "Khatami liberals" were even allowed to run and ONLY someone such as A-jad could run--all this is simply IGNORED by Clarke. He can no longer plead ignorance, as he could with the Palestinians as allies of the Nazis. Now, despite being told the facts, for Clarke the rise of A-jad is because of U.S. policy, and U.S. incompetence--nothing internal to the savage nature of the post-Khomeini clerics who run the government, i.e., to Iranians themselves.

2. What is often said about A-jad when people get worried that he means what he says is that he is not actually the person in power, but rather is a creature of the clerics, the Guardian Council. That is exactly my point: he is a creature of the clerics, the Guardian Council. They destroyed the Tehran Spring in spring 2001, long before 9/11 let alone the invasion of Iraq, because of internal Iranian politics and their fear of liberalization; Khatami's reforms didn't fail "for some reason," Clarke: they failed because of the ferocious opposition of the reactionary Guardian Council, and because, a mullah himself, in the end he actually sided with them against the students.

Under the Iranian constitution the Guardians ensured that someone like A-jad (and eventually A-jad) would take over the government and repress all liberal reforms and institute a barbaric Islam. I repeat, these crucial events occurred in 2001, long before 9/11 and two years before the invasion of iraq, and determined the nature of the post-Khatami government long before either 9/11 or Iraq.

3. Clarke's mode of analysis, under its cover of fashionable radicalism, is in fact grossly paternalistic towards Iran for it gives no agency to the Iranians, who are only reacting to the U.S., and all agency to U.S. policy--i.e., WE control things, so if only WE would change everything would be better. As if third world peoples aren't crucial in determining their own fate, including the nature of their own society, and their own foriegn policy, for cultural reasons of their own. It is a grossly simplistic way of approaching international relations, but one which Clarke refuses to give up, since it allows him to blame everything on the U.S.

4. Iranian nuclearization. The Kerry campaign of 2004 had urged Bush to work with the allies on Iranian nuclearization. Bush did, his policy was the same as Kerry's--the Europeans were left in charge of the negotiations with the Iranian government for four years, though they had the backing of the U.S. in their efforts. The negotiations led nowhere because they were a stalling tactic be a deceitful Iranian govt, as conservatives and neoconservatives had warned. Bush is an incompetent and a fool: have I ever said anything else? But since his policy here was to follow the advice of the Democrats, he is hardly alone: the incompetents include Kerry (who actually had a lower grade point average at Yale than Bush!), the Democratic Party leadership, and above all the bien-pensant Europeans, Chirac of France and Schroeder of Germany, above all. The latter were convinced that their "sophisticated" and "understanding" approach to the mullahs would work more than anything devised by the crude Americans. How wrong they were. But this again shows that external interventions in whatever style have a limited imapct on the mullahs, whose main interest is to maintain their controlling power over Iranian society, for the good of Iran and Islam, and if that means A-jad, so be it.

5. I repeat that we have no way of testing what the real reaction of the ordinary Iranian population was to the U.S. overthrow of Saddam Hussein. A rigged election of A-jad, in which Khatami "liberals" were excluded by the Guardian Council from even running, proves nothing.


Arnold Shcherban - 10/7/2007

Mr. Eckstein,

I publicly challenge you to bet $10K on the following: I argue that Iran, not being attacked with military force by the US or Israel, will never in the next, at the least, five years attack Israel's or the US' territory with its military forces, not already mentioning WMD. Now, if Iran does, I will pay you the indicated amount of money, immediately. However, as soon as the 5-year period (starting the date you accept the bet) ends without the Iran's attack you pay me $10K.
(I would stretch the bet for ten years, but afraid someone of the two of us may not make it that far.)
If you're so sure (as you state you're) about the mortal dangers of the current Iranian govermnment or leaders or whoever you want to talk about there for Israel, you'll make yourself a nice financial favor to accept my bet.


art eckstein - 10/7/2007

Clarke now:

"I made it clear that domestic politics were in fact a central factor making possible the rise of A-jad."

Clarke then:

"More seriously, the article fails to address the international origins of A-jad's ascendency.[THIS IS THE THEMATIC SENTENCE FOR THE ENTIRE PARAGRAPH]
Of course, the massive popular support for his
"reform" predecessor Khatami had faded considerably, due to the latter's' failure to achieve much of anything
[THIS IS CLARKE'S HALF-SENTENCE, PRECEDED BY THE DISMISSIVE PHRASE 'OF COURSE', ON IRANIAN DOMESTIC POLITICS; AND NOTE EVERYTHING ELSE THAT NOW FOLLOWS--AE}:
but it was not foreordained that there would be a sharp swing back to fundamentalist extremism as a result. The resurgence of radical Islam in Iran is clearly and strongly connected to the American chickenhawks' frightful disaster in neighboring Iraq, an outrageous fiasco tailor-made for exploitation by a fanatical Islamist-nationalist like A-jad."

Clarke NOW is engaging in a project of cya to cover his obvious error by claiming he placed domestic politics at the center all along (a false cya, for why else does N.F. say, "Art is right"?]. And yet, simultaneously, Clarke ALSO can't quite give up his previous position even now :

"The timeline [of A-ajad's election in relation to the invasion of iraq] hardly suggests that the invasion of Iraq was irrelevant to the resurgence of fanatical demagoguery in Iran."

a. Well, "Hardly irrelevant" [NOW] is NOT the same as "clearly and strongly connected" to the resurgence of fanatical Islamist nationalism in Iran [THEN], in fact SO connected that Barry Ruben can be criticized for failing to emphasize "the international origins" of the rise of A-jad [THEN].
If Clarke is shifting his position to something less extreme and more defensible as a result of my information, that's fine, but he should admit it.

b. The new formulation is less extreme and historically objectionable in itself, but the problem is that Clarke actually hasn't completely given up his original position, either: for the new position is embedded in an entire discourse in which Clarke blames American policy, not the policy of the Guardian Council dating from spring 2001, for the resurgence of islamic fanaticism in Iran. The domestic struggle in Iran in 2001 is again ignored and the return of an Islamic fanatical government IS blamed on the American invasion of Iraq--as if this were a free election and not one rigged for the Islamic fanatics. As I have shown (and N.F. for one accepts) the new policy of the Guardian Council regarding the pushing of Islamic fanatic nationalism dates from their destruction of the Tehran Spring in 2001, and is a conscious domestic policy of the Guardian Council, which also rigged the elections, a policy dating from months before even 9/11 and from two full years BEFORE the invasion of Iraq.

Hence Clarke continues to blames American policy front and center, not the policies and the rigging of the election by the Guardian Council, for the rise of A-jad.

By the way, we have no way of knowing whether the Iraq invasion so enraged the general Iranian populace that it would have led to the election of A-jad in a FREE election (since none was held)--though Clarke assumes this "Islamic rage" is widespread in Iran, on the basis of the RIGGED election.

And not only can the rigged election not be taken as an indicator of popular sentiment--anymore than last week's rigged election in Pakistan), but for all we know, lots of Iranians in 2004 thought the invasion was not so bad: they may not have wanted the U.S. in Iraq, but the U.S. overthrew Saddam, who had caused 500,000 dead to Iran in a war in 1981-1988 and oppressed the Iraqi Shia terribly, whereas the U.S. invasion--and this is a fact--had liberated the Iraqi Shia from Sunni control, and that is even more true today than in 2004.

That is: "Islamic rage" may exist in much of the Sunni Arab world at Iraq, but it is not at all clear that this is the popular sentiment in Shia Persian Iran. The policy of the A-jad govt and the Guardian Council is not the same as the sentiment of the population. I'm NOT saying that the Iranian populace was happy with the invasion, I'm saying we have no way of guaging popular sentiment--and certainly not via a rigged election. So this too makes Clarke's criticism of Rubin, and his putting the Iraq invasion front and center as the cause for the rise of A-jad, an intellectually very rickety house.

The Iraq invasion was a terrible mistake and I've said it a dozen times on this blog. But that it caused, or was even a major factor in, the rise of A-jad to power in Tehran is false.

I note that Clarke throws in the sarcastic word "Gestalt" against me. This is an indication that Clarke, so anxious to depict the Palestinians as innocent victims of the Israelis, still does NOT accept that the Palestinians were allies of the Nazis and, led by the Nuremburg war-criminal Amin al-Husseini (someone Clarke had not previously even heard of before he called Alan Dershowitz a liar in a previous thread), were a significant factor in the overall Gestalt of the Holocaust.


art eckstein - 10/7/2007

Mr. Clarke wrote the following, in his first posting on this thread:

"More seriously, the article fails to address the international origins of A-jad's ascendency. Of course, the massive popular support for his "reform" predecessor Khatami had faded considerably, due to the latter's' failure to achieve much of anything, but it was not foreordained that there would be a sharp swing back to fundamentalist extremism as a result. The resurgence of radical Islam in Iran is clearly and strongly connected to the American chickenhawks' frightful disaster in neighboring Iraq, an outrageous fiasco tailor-made for exploitation by a fanatical Islamist-nationalist like A-jad."

I have shown that it is not the article but Mr. Clarke who is seriously wrong here. He goes wrong by ignoring the internal politics of Iran, of which he is evidently quite ignorant. He goes wrong by ignoring the powerful negative internal response to Khatami from the reactionary mullahs, which by the crushing of the Tehran Spring in 2001 had already assured an election rigged by the Guardian Council, and the emergence of someone like A-Jad, months even before 9/11 took place--and two full YEARS before the U.S. invasion of iraq. The rigged election of someone such as A-jad was foreordained by summer 2001, thanks to the Guardian Council. And so A-jad's "electoral victory" had very little to do with iraq and a tremendous amount to do with the savage determination of the reactionary mullahs of the Guardian Council to keep control of the government in their hands and thus to keep Iran on "the straight Islamic path".

To be sure, this reconstruction, while historically accurate, does require Muslims to have (vicious) agency in their own behavior, instead of simply reacting to the bad ol' U.S.


N. Friedman - 10/7/2007

Peter,

The issue here is not so simple as saying that Iraq was, as you would have it, the worst blunder in US foreign policy history. As I am fond of saying, that requires a distance in time that none of us currently have.

What appears likely is that Iraq did not succeed and is, absent a substantial change, not likely to succeed at what could be imagined to be the Bushite's intentions, as publicly declared at least. But, the impact of that war have not yet been fully appreciated. I say this as one who did not think the war a good idea.

As for your comments about Art, I think they are way off base. He noted errors in what you write. You might consider that he is correct in what he states.

As for the relative position of the US in the Middle East, it is far from clear where it now stands. We seem, at the moment, to have much higher standing with the Saudis and Gulf states, not to mention Egypt and Jordan, who are all scared out of their wits about Iran. And, that may well lead to a settlement with the Israelis - at least it is imaginable - as the Israelis in alliance with the Sunni Arab states are best positioned to help contain Iran and its allies. And, at the end of the day, the rivalry between Sunni and Shi'a (as well as Arab Persian) raises more substantial issues among Muslims than does Israel.

The point here is that we live in a not clear situation. It makes no sense, as you do, to posit "worst" mistake or the like. That is just politics substituting for analysis.
The history cannot yet be written until we know the actual impact, both short term and reasonably long term.


N. Friedman - 10/7/2007

Peter,

Mr. Rubin might write a book on the topic. But what we have above is a short article and such articles do not cover every imaginable topic.

You appear to agree with the gist of what he writes. You criticize him for saying the obvious. But, in fact, there are a plethora of people who have no idea what Ahmadinejad and his ilk are about. So, the article provides useful information and perspective. And, it helps educate people to understand how dangerous Iran and its leadership really are. And, Iran really is very dangerous.

I am not a policy maker. I, instead, propose what I think is likely to happen, not what ought to happen, whether or not under Bush or his successor. I, in fact, do not know what ought to be done. I do not think such to be an historians question, for what it is worth, because it requires a different skill set than most historians have to offer.

In any event, I think the US will, in due course, take military action. Whether that is a good approach is another story.

And, I do not think that Clinton or Giuliani will follow a very different path on this than Mr. Bush. In the case of Giuliani, his adviser is Mr. Podhoretz who believes that without setting back the Islamist agenda by military means, the position of the US in the world will suffer a dramatic decline. Mrs. Clinton, who has only somewhat more dovish advisers, is also thought to be a hawk with respect to Iran.

The Europeans, it is to be noted, have also recently noted that soft-power has not had much influence on Iran's behavior. The negotiations have been a complete failure - which, to anyone other than a dope, was obvious before the negotiations began - because Iran will not trade what it views as existentially important for money. Hence, we have European leaders like the socialist foreign minister of France, Kouchner, speaking about the use of military force to stop Iran.

In any event, the choices here are few: either stop Iran by military force or stop Iran by deterrence. The latter approach is, I would think, preferable in theory but the notion that religious lunatics cannot be deterred cannot be ignored. So, this is a real dilemma.


art eckstein - 10/7/2007

As usual, Mr. Clarke version of things is highly inaccurate.

1. Nazism wasn't wildly popular in late 1932 and early 1933; the Nazis got less of the popular vote in Nov. 1932 than in the July elections (where they'd gotten a lot of protest votes; they lost 30 seats in the Reichstag from July), and the NSDAP was far from a majority in the Reichstag. They were the numerically most important single German party in 1932-1933 but did not command a popular vote or Reichstag majority. Sleazy maneuvering led to Hitler's appt as Chancellor, followed by, e.g., the Reichstag Fire and the proclamation of emergency decrees by which the Nazis established their dictatorship. The negative power of intimidation by a ruthless minority, followed by great foreign policy successes, are what established Hitler's popularity by 1936-1937.

This is not to defend the German people, many of whom later became "Hitler's Willing Executioners." (a book of which, however, Clarke has read too much; he should read Jeffrey Herf's review of this inaccurate book in The New Republic.) My point is only that Hitler BECAME very popular. He didn't command a majority in January 1933.

2. The real problem was that the NSDAP and the KDP (German Communist Party) were BOTH out to destroy Weimar democracy in 1932-1933, and together they DID command a majority of the popular vote, vs. the more moderate parties, the SPD and the Catholic Center Party (which became the Christian Democrats after the war). The far left had a large part in the destruction of Weimar democracy.

3. As for Iran, the victory of A-jad was NOT caused by the American invasion of Iran, but by the Religious "Guardian" Council of clerics, which forbade even relatively liberal candidates from running at all in the 2004 parliamentary elections and thus stacked the deck in the 2004 elections against anyone who had supported Khatami. The Religious "Guardian" Council had been following this anti-Khatami policy for fully three years by that point.
Clarke wants to blame everything on the Americans, as usual, and he refuses to allow radical Muslims their own agency and (vicious) motives, as usual. It's always all some sort of reasonable reaction to American action--NOT.

If anything, the Khatami govt was not enraged but rather impressed with the American victory in March-April 2003 and tried to come to an arrangement with Bush. How far the Khatami govt would've been allowed to actually go by the reactionary Guardian Council is very very debatable. But the Bush govt very stupidly and over-confidently refused to engage.
Once A-jad was in "elected" power in 2004, then the Iranian govt--which includes the Religious "Guardian" Council above all--began to support the insurgency and the terrorists 100%, providing them (now increasingly) with very sophisticated weapons, while accelerating the development of the A-bomb. Things might have been very different if a free election had been allowed and Khatami-style candidates allowed to run. But this was prevented-and it is about to be prevented AGAIN by the Guardians, who are above all--ABOVE ALL-- concerned with the imposition and maintenance of "proper islam" on Iran and the iranian people. However unpopular the Guardians are, and this is actually uncertain (is it really so overwhelming?), they have great physical power of coercion, including with the ruthless Army of the Guardians of the Revolution, i.e., the Revolutionary Guard (Pasdaran) thugs of whom A-jad was a leader.

But the Religious "Guardian" Council had been appalled all along by Khatami's relative liberalization policies, and had backed the A-jad style Pasdaran thugs against the university students in spring and summer 2001. This was the crushing of "the Tehran Spring." NOTE, Clarke, that this crucial event in Iranian political history occurred BEFORE 9/11, and long LONG before the invasion of Iraq. Most things in Iran flow from these crucial events. Khatami should've sided with the students, in which case we'd have a liberal Iran. But instead he went along with the Guardians, severely his own influence with everyone on both sides. This crucial event had literally nothing to do with the U.S.


N. Friedman - 10/6/2007

I do not think I disagree with much of anything in the article. Very, very good.