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The Public Editor for NYT has a note today, Entitled to Their Opinions, Yes. But Their Facts?. Hoyt writes that he called up five experts of Islamic jurisprudence and they all said Luttwak was wrong. And that the editors of the op-ed page never consulted any such experts because, they don't" customarily call experts to invite them to weigh in on the work of our contributors". Not only that, David Shipley, the editor of the Op-Ed page does not"think the Op-Ed page was under any obligation to present an alternative view, beyond some letters to the editor."
Your liberal press in action.
[see earlier: Once a Muslim]
There is a report from this last Sunday, the 29th, of the arrest of Christians, including a convert in Yeman:
"SANAA, YEMEN (BosNewsLife)-- Seven arrested Christian missionaries, including an unknown number of Americans, apparently remained detained in Yemen Sunday, June 29, and there was international concern they may face torture for spreading Christianity, several sources said."
"Yemeni news website Sahwa Net reported that Hadni Dohni, a Yemeni Muslim who converted to Christianity, and six "foreigners" are accused of "promoting Christianity and distributing the Bible..." The suspects were apparently detained last week in Hodiada province and transferred to the capital Sanaa where security forces investigate them "to know who support them," the website said."
"Isaac Crawford, an American blogger who has been writing from Yemen on his Web site www.isaharr.com told BosNewsLife however he is especially concerned about the Yemeni convert. He, "is the one that you need to pray for. The popular method of dealing with converts is to kill them," Crawford said, adding that the foreigners were likely to face deportation."
"ICC noted that the latest arrests are part "of growing persecution of Christians in Islamic countries," and said believers in Iran, Egypt and Algeria have also seen "a spike in anti-Christian activity." Yemeni officials had no comment."
Ralph, you can have me banned from your electronic faculty lounge, but that won't change the truth that you seek to evade.
Grant
Ralph E. Luker -
6/19/2008
There is no "elephant in the living room." You apparently cannot stay on the subject because your comments have had *nothing* to do with the subject of Manan's post. You have a blog of your own. Say whatever you wish over there. Here, you function only as a troll.
Grant W Jones -
6/19/2008
I've been both civil and intelligent. And I have even provided facts supporting my position.
As to your colleagues non-response, including the author of this blog entry, I'm used to academic/liberal evasion of the elephant in the living home.
Ralph E. Luker -
6/18/2008
Which do you deny? That you are ignorant? Or that you are a troll? Doesn't the fact that *none* of my colleagues at Cliopatria will even respond to any of your comments here give you a clue? They know better than to feed the trolls. Why not just go away if you can't be both civil and intelligent?
Grant W Jones -
6/18/2008
Ralph, is that the best you've got?
:-))
Ralph E. Luker -
6/18/2008
Grant, You are an ignorant troll.
Grant W Jones -
6/18/2008
Ralph, you seem to suffer from an extreme case of absurd moral equivalence. The "outrages" at Gitmo exist solely in your head. And now these war criminals are to be given Constitutional rights in order to ensure their release to murder again. Abu Ghraib was an example of an exceptional loss of discipline that the U.S. military dealt with. The examples of Islamic intolerance I cite represent systematic oppression of Kaffirs and Moslem dissenters that exist throughout the dar al-Islam.
"Bruce Bawer makes this point in his book, "While Europe Slept: How Radicalism Is Destroying the West from Within." One of the most disgraceful developments of our time, he writes, "is that many Western intellectuals who pride themselves on being liberals have effectively aligned themselves with an outrageously illiberal movement that rejects equal rights for women, that believes gays and Jews should be executed, that supports the cold-blooded murder of one's own children in the name of honor.""
You forgot to mention Haditha, the fruits of Western self-loathing.
Ralph E. Luker -
6/18/2008
This is *really* boring, Grant. No one here has ever denied that Muslims have committed outrages; and you've never acknowledged American outrages at Guantanamo and abu Ghraib.
Grant W Jones -
6/18/2008
Here are some more for you and your academic buddies to evade:
"ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - A Pakistani man was sentenced to death for blasphemy on Wednesday after he defiled the Muslim holy book and used derogatory language to refer to the Prophet Mohammad, a police official said."
"ISTANBUL, June 17 (Compass Direct News) – Convicted of blasphemy and evangelism in two separate cases this year, an Algerian Christian goes on trial in west Algeria for a third time tomorrow, again for evangelism. Rachid Muhammad Essaghir (previously reported as Seghir), 37, will be tried in Tissemsilt, 110 miles southwest of Algiers, for “distributing documents to shake the faith of Muslims.”"
"West Bengal, India (AINA) -- A mob of nearly 7000 Muslims attacked a group of Hindu pilgrims in West Bengal, a state in Eastern India that borders Bangladesh on the west. According to a Hindu blog, a sacred Hindu site frequented by Hindu pilgrims, including women and children, has experienced a sustained attack since Thursday evening. Muslims have thrown gas cylinders and Molotov cocktails at the pilgrims, burning down the camp building and trapping 180 men, women and children, along with fifteen police officers, within the confines of the compound."
The examples of Islamic intolerance multiply by the day. The official response? The OIC holds another conference on "Islamophobia."
You may now return to your slumbers.
Ralph E. Luker -
6/13/2008
er, ... that would be "multi-culturalist". Trying to have a conversation with you is a waste of time, Grant.
Grant W Jones -
6/12/2008
P.S. The New York Times came out today in favor of applying "hate speech" laws to those who criticize certain belief systems. Guess which one they have in mind.
Fighting "Islamophobia" with thought control. A policy that "liberals" can support? Or perhaps multicultalists fascists. As I'm sure the Islamic Saudi Academy won't be facing charges or front page NYT's coverage.
Grant W Jones -
6/12/2008
The problem is academics and liberals who can't handle the truth. Speaking of hostlity:
"McLEAN, Va. (AP)— Textbooks at a private Islamic school in northern Virginia teach students that it is permissible for Muslims to kill adulterers and converts from Islam, according to a federal investigation released Wednesday.
"Other passages in the school's textbooks state that "the Jews conspired against Islam and its people" and that Muslims are permitted to take the lives and property of those deemed "polytheists.""
"_ The authors of a 12th-grade text on Koranic interpretation state that apostates (those who convert from Islam), adulterers and people who murder Muslims can be permissibly killed."
Isn't that special? And sooo off topic. Now you may return to your "Islamophobia" mythology.
Ralph E. Luker -
6/11/2008
Grant, Make some effort to stay on subject, would you? I understand that your hostility to all religious belief inevitably means hostility to Islam, but your point is completely irrelevant to this discussion.
Grant W Jones -
6/11/2008
It's Official:
ISTANBUL, June 9 (Compass Direct News) – A Jordanian Islamic law court has annulled the marriage of a former Muslim because of his conversion to Christianity. The North Amman Sharia Court in April dissolved the marriage of Mohammad Abbad, on trial for apostasy, or leaving Islam. The 40-year-old convert fled Jordan with his wife and two young children in March after another Christian convert’s relatives attacked Abbad’s family in their home and his father demanded custody of Abbad’s children. “Marriage depends on the creed [religion], and the apostate has no creed,” a May 22 court document stated, detailing reasons for the April 22 marriage annulment. Jordan’s penal code does not outlaw apostasy, and the country’s constitution guarantees freedom of religion, as does the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights that was given force of law in the country in June 2006. But Islam, Jordan’s official religion, forbids conversion to another faith.
Jeff, You're having a real hard time staying on subject. No one here has denied that there has been a series of outrages by Muslim terrorists. They just have *nothing* to do with Luttwak's off-base claim that Obama would be seen as an apostate from Islam.
Jeff Vanke -
6/4/2008
Darn outliers. WTC, Pentagon, USS Cole, Nairobi, Dar es Salaam, and oh, five years ruling most of Afghanistan and Afghanistanis to make Iran look moderate.
Ralph E. Luker -
6/4/2008
It's not unrelated. If Protestant, Roman Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox authorities agree on a point of doctrine, but there's a self-appointed "bishop" of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Apocalypse, who insists that they're all full of shit, you and Luttwak are obsessing about the outliar.
Jeff Vanke -
6/3/2008
True. True. Unrelated.
Ralph E. Luker -
6/2/2008
You undoubtedly condemn *all* outrages, including American outrages in Iraq and Afghanistan, and provide "balanced" treatment of public affairs on your own blogs. If not, why not? Have you congratulated Judith Klinghoffer at HNN for her own "fair and balanced" treatment of all things political and Middle Eastern on her blog? If not, why not?
Grant W Jones -
6/2/2008
Today a car bomb targeting the Danish Embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan killed at least six people. But of course, Manan (and the folks at Cliopatria) only have outrage for Edward Luttwak.
P.S. "If a boy under age apostatize, he is not to be put to death, but will be imprisoned until he came to full age, when, if he continue in the state of unbelief, he must be put to death. Neither lunatics nor drunkards are held to be responsible for their apostasy from Islam. (Hidayah, vol. ii. 246.)"
Ralph E. Luker -
6/2/2008
... and made the point that some groups of American Christians practice polygamy, engage in child abuse, and have done murder in the name of their religious beliefs.
Jeff Vanke -
6/2/2008
Actually, Juan Cole allowed that some groups of Islam would endorse Luttwak's version of Obamapostasy.
Ralph E. Luker -
6/2/2008
Grant, The op-ed in question argued that Obama's life would be in peculiar danger because the Muslim world would regard him as an apostate. That point is incorrect, as even you now concede. You continue to point out your areas of disagreement with the views held by some people in the Muslim world. Did anybody doubt that? So, your point would be ... ?
Grant W Jones -
6/2/2008
I am still curious as to why Ali is still in hiding. How could so many peaceful Moslems misunderstand their own religion? Maybe the NYT can have their five "experts" give a refresher course to Hizballah, Islamic Jihad, al Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood ... etc.
Nice dodge about there being "only" two Islamic nations that punish apostasy with death. Many have similar punishments de facto such as Sudan or Pakistan.
Before PC overwhelmed the academy honest scholars noted the treatment of apostates and dhimmis in the dar al-Islam. Now most are in denial about the massive increase in fundamentalist Islam throughout the world.
"AP0STASY FROM ISLAM Arabic irtidad . According to Muslim law, a male apostate, or Murtadd, is liable to be put to death if he continue obstinate in his error; a female apostate is not subject to capital punishment, but she may be kept in confinement until she recants. (Hamilton's Hidayah, vol. ii. p. 227.) If either the husband or wife apostatize from the faith of Islam, a divorce takes place ipso facto; the wife is entitled to her whole dower, but no sentence of divorce is necessary. If the husband and wife both apostatize together, their marriage is generally allowed to continue, although Imam Zufar says it is annulled. But if after their joint apostasy, either husband or wife were simply to return to Islam, then the marriage would be dissolved. (Hamilton's Hidayah, vol. ii, p. 188)
According to Abu Hanifah, a male apostate is disabled from selling or otherwise disposing of his property. But Abu Yusuf and Imam Muhammad differ from their master up to this point, and consider a male apostate to be as competent to exercise every right as if he were still in the faith (Hidayah, vol ii., p. 235).
If a boy under age apostatize, he is not to be put to death, but will be imprisoned until he came to full age, when, if he continue in the state of unbelief, he must be put to death. Neither lunatics nor drunkards are held to be responsible for their apostasy from Islam. (Hidayah, vol. ii. 246.). If a person upon compulsion becomes an apostate, his wife is not divorced, nor are his lands forfeited. If a person become a Musalman upon compulsion, and afterwards apostatize, he is not to be put to death. (Hiddyah, vol. iii., 467.)
The will of a male apostate is not valid, but that of a fema1e apostate is valid. (Hidayah, vol. iii., 537.)
'Ikrimah relates that some apostates were brought to the Khalifah 'Ali, and he burnt them alive, but Ibn 'Abbas heard of it and said that the Khalifah had not acted rightly for the Prophet had said, "Punish not with God's punishment (i.e. fire), but whosoever changes his religion, kill him with the sword." (Sahihu l'-Bukhari)."
