Blogs > Cliopatria > Derek Amidst the Po-Mo crowd

Jun 11, 2004

Derek Amidst the Po-Mo crowd




I am currently spending a month as a participant in a National Endowment for the Humanities Summer Institute at Ferrum College in southwestern Virginia. The theme of the program is “Regional Studies and the Liberal Arts: Appalachia Up Close.” As a historian of the American South I wanted to be able to take a closer look not only at the idea of regional history but at a particular (sub)region that I wanted to be able to fit into the framework of Southern history. While I will write more in the future about my experiences here, suffice it to say for now that I am more convinced than ever that Southern Appalachia properly is part of the South.

One of the strengths of the program is the group of Institute Fellows (or whatever we are called). We are all college or university professors and we come into the program with an array of interests and strengths. My colleagues are smart, engaged, oftentimes funny and insightful. They say provocative things. They are well read and are committed to good teaching and in some cases to solid scholarship. I enjoy being around them most of the time. It is an intellectual community where ideas in general seem to be taken seriously.

And sometimes already they drive me insane. Part of the problem is disciplinary. While I embrace interdisciplinarity, the majority of the folks here are English Literature types, and they bring with them their talk about postmodernism, discourse, and a whole lot of other jargon. It makes my brain hurt. There are a few other disciplines scattered in, including sociology. There are only three historians among the group of us. This is a problem. Especially when they get going on anything history related. I’ve endured a lot of foolishness about “facts,” used, of course, in quotation marks, sneering about truths, insistence that it is all “just texts,” and other non-sequiters, nonsense, and nonstarters. Some insist that you can learn history just as well – better! – from a novel. I find it amazing that many of them would effectively dismiss the historical profession – even, maybe especially, when it comes to issues of the past. It’s a level of arrogance that has not yet been substantiated by a compelling level of argumentation.

Three examples: We had the renowned poet and novelist Robert Morgan came to the seminar the other day. His novels utilize historical backdrops and in some cases are categorized as historical fiction. Like most historians, I value good fiction, and I often use it in the classroom. But it is what it is. Literature can serve as a social/cultural document. It can evoke a mood or convey an idea. But it is not a substitute for reading actual works of history. I have heard all sorts of arguments here about how novels are easier for students to handle, how it draws them to historical questions in a way that a monograph does not. Perhaps. But beyond the fact that maybe our chief goal in a university or college setting should not be about giving our students the easy way out, none of the people conveying these sentiments actually teach history. In effect they are purporting to speak authoritatively to pedagogical issues in history classrooms. In my classroom.

For his part, Robert Morgan argued that literature endures where history does not. I took issue with this, and we began a good conversation, though then he amended his statement to include those nonfiction writers who are not history PhDs because some historians resent the successes of some of those who in another era may have been known as “talented amateurs.” It seemed a bizarre argument at the time – not only was he claiming fiction, he was also, in effect, claiming history. As I think about it, it is an even more bizarre argument now. Morgan is currently working on a biography of Daniel Boone. I imagine it will be wonderful. I expect that if it is, historians will value it. If it is not, most of us will not.

But the last straw was when one of my colleagues asked Morgan about how to integrate novels into a college history class alongside “more traditional” sources. I am still puzzled about this – why, precisely, are we asking a novelist (and writing professor, though one who only teaches upper level seminars and grad students in creative writing and not even English surveys) about how college history professors should be teaching our discipline? Underlying all of this is a bizarre and, as most of us know, simply wrong, conception that somehow historians are not writers that has been pervading the seminar. Anyone else read any lit-crit lately? And apparently that we are not good teachers either (I keet hearing about how bored students are with history. Funny – every place I have ever been, history is an incredibly popular major).

Second example: We are reading Crandall Shifflett’s book Coal Towns: Life, Work, and Culture in Company Towns of Southern Appalachia, 1880-1960. When one of the professors leading the seminar, the historian, said something to the effect of how Shifflett has a “neutral” take in Coal Towns there was an audible dismissive gasp that came from a visitor, a Folklorist. It has become more and more apparent to me that for some of my colleagues, in order to be “neutral” a source has to agree with them. Shifflett’s book is controversial to be sure. It is a revisionist work, and to my mind a welcome one. But if we must use terms like “neutral” this book qualifies. Its argument basically is that in company towns, people managed to negotiate space for their lives, to eke out happiness, even amidst a system that was at its base exploitative. That while things may often have been difficult, there was more to people’s lives in coal towns than simply grim conflict between worker and employer. He argues further that despite the romance of the agrarian lifestyle, most people welcomed modernization, that life on the rural farms was far from ideal, and that the coming of modernization to Appalachia was not a bad thing and that the people themselves valued it.

These are not unreasonable arguments. They have their flaws. There are also some issues with sourcing and the like. But because it does not echo some sort of “Coal Mines are Evil!” argument, a cartoonish view of history, it does not pass ideological muster among some of my peers. I was able to make some solid defenses of Shifflett’s book in seminar today, but the debate was shut off so that we did not blow our best material today. Shifflett is coming in tomorrow – my guess is that today was our best bet, because we have some tin soldiers in the seminar – they’ll talk a big game today. Tomorrow when they have a chance to confront Shifflett? Not so much.

One final anecdote: At breakfast this morning one of my colleagues was telling a story from one of her classes. Effectively the question on the table in the class related to whether or not it would be right or even acceptable for a man to steal food from another individual in order to feed their family and if someone would be justified in responding with violence in protecting their property. Reasonable issue, reasonable question. Then she told of how one of the women in her class answered with a resounding “No. I’d feel completely justified in shooting them.” This is not an answer I would give, nor one I agree with. But surely a student has the right to say it. My colleague concluded her story with, “I felt as if I had failed her.”

I chimed in at this point – I asked why on earth she had failed a student who decided to make a different judgment than she would as to the issue at hand. She said that it was because the student had given such an “anti-intellectual” argument. She further said that what was most vexing was that she asked the student “Have you ever gone hungry” (the personalization of issues represents a sort of solipsism in the classroom that drives me mad, but never mind that for now) and the student responded (it was nearing 5:00 and class was at an end) “Yes, I’m hungry now.” Never mind that the question really ought to be largely irrelevant (one’s stance on the issue is dependent upon one’s level of nourishment? Class background is destiny?). It was not the most politic of answers, but I know college students – my guess is that she was being ironic. Or at least a smart ass. Or maybe she just did not like the implication from the professor that she was wrong, that in answering a question she had failed some moral test. Who knows? In any case, this was the evidence for the student’s anti-intellectualism.

One of my other colleagues (an avowed Marxist) was actually much more assertive about how dreadfully wrong the student was. She maintained that if a student comes in to a course with preconceptions and they do not change their mind (on all issues, or just where the professor thinks they should? If she had come into class and said on day one that such a theft was acceptable and said the same thing on the last day would that have been a failure too?) I told her that it sounded an awful lot as if “anti-intellectual” meant “something I do not agree with” (see “neutrality” above). I’m still not certain, unless it was a class being done by strict Socratic method, how the one student giving an answer in a college class, and a rather unpopular opinion one might surmise, was being anti-intellectual. I guess her compliant classmates were doing all the heavy lifting with their pregnant intellectual silences. Suffice it to say I would not want to be a student in a classroom with some of my fellow seminar participants.

I’ve spoken to enough of my colleagues to know that a good number are not like this. (The historians have been great. We rule.) It will be an interesting remaining couple of weeks. I promise that on the whole my impressions of my colleagues are quite positive. But Robert Morgan reminded us the other day that it is tension, not placidity that makes for good fiction. As a general rule, wouldn’t you know, so it goes too for Rebunk.



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Ralph E. Luker - 7/22/2004

Tom,
Curti is hardly any longer regarded as a serious contender. It's something more like a relic. And, it is true that if you take work like Forcey's, which take their starting point well after the CW, there isn't much found there about its effect. Your issue, really, is about the purpose of a work.
But I'd start with something more serious, like George Fredrickson's The Inner Civil War. Menand obviously learned a lot from Fredrickson. You also have to other work from Edmund Wilson's Patriotic Gore: Studies in the Literature of the American Civil War and Daniel Aaron's The Unwritten War to David Blight's Race and Reunion. The latter is a fine book, but a lot of historians had plowed that ground before him.


Tom Bruscino - 7/22/2004

Ralph,

Seriously? I'm not an intellectual historian by any stretch of the imagination, but from what I've read on progressivism, almost no important books talk about the lasting effects of the Civil War the way Menand does. I guess it depends on how you define intellectual history, but Richard Hofstadter, The Age of Reform; Eric Goldman, Rendezvous with Destiny; Christopher Lasch, The New Radicalism in America; Michael McGerr, A Fierce Discontent; Charles Forcey, Crossroads of Liberalism; Samuel Hays, Conservation and the Gospel of Efficiency; Robert Wiebe, The Search for Order; and Alan Dawley, Struggles for Justice all either hardly mention the war or ignore it outright. Menand stresses that the very real memory of the horrors of the Civil War and fear of an equaly horrifying class war helped lead to the development of reformist thought. I am willing to believe that view may be prevalent in a lot of important intellectual history, but it certainly is not common in discussions of the roots of progressivism.

A quick glance at Merle Curti, The Growth of American Thought, seems to indicate that he does not make that explicit argument, instead focusing on the growth of education during the war and the emergence of a new nation and nationalism afterward. Civil War memory is a field I really want to get into after my current porject, so I would really like some direction on reading about the intellectual effects of the war.


Ralph E. Luker - 7/22/2004

Tom, In re your point about Menand and lasting effects of war, I think it's fair to say that _no_ important American intellectual history has ignored either the issues leading up to the Civil War or its lasting effects.


Derek Charles Catsam - 7/22/2004

Oh, Tom, you and your crazy talk about "wars" having "consequences." Dammit, the postmodernists might imply that wars are just constructs anyway, right. And of course somehow it's the patriarchy's fault. But mostly its just your fault. Warmonger.
dc


Tom Bruscino - 7/22/2004

Yeah, Menand is very fair. In my opinion he still struggles to explain what the hell Dewey was talking about, but then that is nothing new. My favorite part of the book is that it brings the devastation of the Civil War into the discussion. Some of us think wars might have lasting effects that historians have ignored for all too long.


Derek Charles Catsam - 7/21/2004

Bill --
Well, my guess is that of the approximately gazillion folks who bought that book, not as many read it as would like to pretend, but he does manage to make 19th century pragmatism seem pretty lively. You'd like it. I think. It's been long enough for me that I do not recall whether there is any underlying political message or ideology that you might pick up on.
dc


Bill Heuisler - 7/21/2004

Derek,
You got me. Showoff. Had to look up Menand. Interesting.
Not enough time to read them all, I guess.
Bill


Derek Charles Catsam - 7/21/2004

Bill --
i Iould have thought this strain would have been left to the dustbin of history.
I have to say, the Macmillen book is an amazing accomplishment, because as you say, she took an idea that most of us would find to be work we have to do, not work we wanted to do, and make it so readable that we suddenly wanted to do it. I worry a bit that Ferguson is going to make the mistakes Ambrose, a fine and much maligned historian, made toward the end, and start churning stuff out with too little an eye toward intellectual quality.
Of course some writers can be seductively good writers and that covers a multitude of sins. I am thinking mainly of Diane McWhorter's book on Birmingham.
It is interesting, though, that Americans really will read good stuff irrespective of topic. Think of Menand's book, for goodness' sake. You just never know.
dc


Bill Heuisler - 7/21/2004

Derek,
Wonderful. You do write well. And we seem to agree on so much it's hard to understand our political schism. As to historian/writers, the excellent (dulcet) prose of the two I mentioned elsewhere (Macmillan and Ferguson) was the reason I mentioned them. Macmillan in particular takes a rather dry and exceedingly extensive subject to vivid and piercing heights seldom reached by novelists.
Bill


Richard Henry Morgan - 6/20/2004

Keith's views of aboriginal history are indeed controversial. What isn't controversial is that Keith absolutely nailed one of the "black armband historians" on the subject of aboriginal extinction in Tasmania (Linda Ryan), for citing sources that didn't support her contentions. He also nailed Henry Reynolds for rewriting a quote from Governor Arthur in order to support his contentions. Keith may or may not be correct in his own positive theses, but he is spot-on concerning the shaky foundations and iffy use of sources by certain black armband historians. And for that he is much hated by the PC crowd.


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/17/2004

Grant --
You know the lightning rod type-- hell,I'm one of 'em. He just tends to draw controversy like flies. His workon the aborigines has drawn a great deal of criticism, and while I do not know the field that well,I do know that on a few points anyway,he might have gone too far. I'm not sure if or why you should care. It was mostly a statement of fact,or at least an assertion that i believe to be factual.
dc


Grant W Jones - 6/17/2004

In his book, _The Killing of History_, Windschuttle's main issue is epistemology. He demonstrates that PoMo theory has corrupted the field of history. Windschuttle's brillant take down of Semiotics, Structuralism (Mark I and II, etc.), Hermeneutics and relativism (moral and epistemological) have nothing to do with politics. He just makes the case that those with a hard left agenda have the most to gain by destroying a logical and fact based methodology. In this regard, he may be on your side.

How is he a "lightning rod?" What does that mean, and why should I care?


David Lion Salmanson - 6/17/2004

JB Harley is hardly a deconstructionist and his work is absolutely not nonsense. Deconstruction is the literary technique whereby the critic shows that the assumed dominant category (for example: white) is actually determined by the subordinate category (for example: black). In other words, although we all assume we know what it means to be white, when we look more closely, whiteness, historically, has usually been defined as "not black." Blackness, on the other hand was defined by a specific list of attributes.

What Harley does, otoh, is put the process and product of map production into a wide historical context. This is not deconstruction. This is analysis. If you do one thing, (and this is you broadly people)never, ever, use deconstruct to mean analyze. Because once you do that, you are on the road to saying all analysis is bad and since you can't be a critical thinker without analyzing stuff, your on the road to condeming yourself to being a sheep for life once you start using deconstruct to mean analyze.

And now back to our regularly scheduled blogging.


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/17/2004

I would not allow undergrads to use dictionaries to start their papers, but I'll indulge Mr. Boggs because, well, I'll indulge him. Bad writing does not necessarily indicate bad ideas. Necessarily.

I've said many times that I use novels, memoirs, and other sources in my classes. I don't know what else would convince him. I suppose I could send Mr. Boggs syllabi, but I'm not sure what I owe him on this front.

I don't assume either dignity or importance, his gauge for pretension, (note: typos and misspellings are rather different) and I think that readers for whom English is the first language would get that I endorse interdisciplinarity, indeed that it is a huge part of my training. I simply maintain that historians may be the best folks to teach history. Just as novelists might be the best folks to teach the sort of writing for which fidelity for the facts is optional. Perhaps, just perhaps, I've got a decent enough grasp of Faulkner or Coetzee or Fitzgerald to use them in my classes mindful of the fact of both their flaws and their strengths as historical sources. Crazy that. I doubt that in my areas he has read more literature or memoir or whatever else than I. I doubt even more that he has taught them in university classes of his own more than I have. Perhaps he has. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'll await his books and syllabi with anticipation.

I also seriously doubt that he has been here in Ferrum with me, because, well, he has not, and thus my impressions on this front just might have more credibility than his. The other commenters got the gist of my post. That he would parse words of conversations he has not heard strikes me as, well, postmodern. But not especially illustrative, despite his ability to misread a post that others apparently got. I am, however, curious as to what questions the po-mos have given us, because when it comes to questions of power interpretation and such, this is not new terrain. The Beards, Woodward, even Genovese have asked these questions for decades. The po-mos have given us their jargon, and an analytical apparatus with which we have to deal, but not much new.

As for my attempt to break down disciplinary boundaries, well, I can say all I want that my background is interdisciplinary. That he predicates it on my response to a novelist who is not a historian is not my problem.

He also tried to diminish this blog. Odd. He is, after all, responding to me, and not vice versa. I'd love to have him stick around. But this civil rights historian has earned his stripes. And I did not need to resort to Webster's to prove that he misused a word. Pretense indeed. Pretense is about not knowing what one purports to know. I know what I know, no matter what Mr. Boggs learned in Dr. Shifflett's classes. (Hint --Dr. Shifflett seemed rather to enjoy how I took on the folks in the seminar here when they misinterpreted his work and I defended it. But maybe Mr. Boggs knows better.)
dc


Jeremy Boggs - 6/17/2004

I hope the folks running this weblog don't mind if I post another "lecture" here, since I assumed this is what the comments section was for.

I'm getting this from Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary:

"Pretentious: 2. CHARACTERIZED BY ASSUMPTION OF DIGNITY OR IMPORTANCE."

Thus, I used the word "pretentious" in response to what I felt was an argument made by Dr. Catsam based on the "assumption of dignity or importance" that he gives historians as the sole curator of the historical record. By curator I mean "a manager, superintendent" who curates (cares for or attends to...)

I think it's interesting that you refer to Crandall Shiffett in your blog, only because I had Dr. Shifflett for a class on the Transatlantic World at Virginia Tech, and he enjoyed using, of all things, Frank McCourt's "Angela's Ashes" in the class. A memoir? Sure. A novel? Indeed. A history? You bet.

I'd love to hear what others in the workshop told Dr. Shifflett when he visited. I've read his book and think it's an excellent piece of work. I also agree with Dr. Catsam that to demean Shifflett's book because he emphasizes the positive attitudes of the miners is ridiculous.

By the way, we read a lot of "deconstructionist nonesense" in Shifflett's class as well (e.g. J.B. Harley's work on map deconstruction). Of course, there are lots of things wrong with Harley's approach, namely his seemingly paranoia with elite and governmental consipracies in constructing maps and presenting information that only it sees fit. It's much more complicated than that. But what is so great about that "deconstructionist nonesense" is that it has given us new angles of inquiry, asked new questions, and contributed to scholarly debate. I think Dr. Shifflett has roughly the same attitudes toward postmodernism that Dr. Catsam has. Shifflett, however, does a great job of bringing in different perspectives, approaches, and interpretations and mines the useful elements out of them.

Dr. Catsam said: "And when an English professor asks a novelist how literature should be used in college history classrooms, with all of the underlying issues about which I wrote already in the post, it does get my dander up a little, yeah."

In the original you refer to this person merely as a "colleague". I assumed he was a historian. It was probably wrong of me to assume, but Mr. Catsam and I have a fundamental disagreement on this issue. It wouldn't bother me to hear an English professor ask such a question. We're all trying to learn a little bit about the world around us. Asking such a question, in my opinion, merely reflects such a curiosity. Dr. Catsam has every right to ask how an English professor can use an scholarly argument made by a historian in a Literature class. I'm not guaranteeing that anything useful will come out of either question, but something might. Putting down such a question because it breaks some disciplinary barrier seems senseless.

Ultimately, I do think historians (or whoever is teaching a class) do have the right to decide what to teach in their classrooms. I'm refuting your claim that by asking other non-historians what we should incorporate into our classes, we're giving up that right. We not giving it up at all.

If you want to put me down by questioning my lack of an "introduction" to "Mr. Dictionary", then I'll leave this blog alone in its own little space on the Web and not bother you all again. If I've misunderstood your post, tell me what I've misunderstood, and we'll continue talking about topic. I hope I've used (and spelled) all the words in this correctly, and I'm glad Dr. Catsam didn't lose sleep over my comments.


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/16/2004

Windschuttle is a lightning rod for criticism, and on some points he has gone overboard. One also does not have to share his view of history or politics (in general I do not) to oppose much of what po-mo hath wrought.
dc


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/16/2004

Ralph --
Except I think I might be the embodiment of the bawdy house in this situation.
dc


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/16/2004

Plus, of course, ease of reading does not even translate to quality. These same professors who might venerate the liveliness of a novel versus their perceptions of historical work would at the same time scoff at much popular, airplane fiction as opposed to tougher stuff -- i do not know a lot of folks, English professors or otherwise, who would venerate Collins or Grisham over faulkner or Joyce, and yet one of these pairs is substantially more difficult than the other to read and grasp and get and love.
Great point, Steve, with the question about whether a student had ever been robbed. Hits the nail on the head exactly.
dc


Steven Heise - 6/16/2004

Pregnant intellectual silences...nope, dunno what that would be like...

As for the actual substance of a reply here, let me ask if the professor who was criticizing her student for answering she would defend her property, had ever asked a student who would allow the theif to simply take what they wanted (hungry or not), if the student had ever been stolen from? Its the same nonsensical questioning of one little bit of a person's entire experience, but, at least in the name of fairness Prof. Catsam's colleague might not seem so horribly biased if she had asked such a question. Something tells me this is probably not the case though. Probably my own experiences with a post modernist(?) english teacher in highschool. (How 'Black Elk Speaks' came to be required reading for a British Literature class still boggles me. At least 'Cry the Beloved Country' was based on a nation that had a history of British colonialism)

Also, how can one argue that literature endures when history does not? Did Prof. Morris suggest that mythology was simply a collection of ahistorical stories? While it would be foolish to claim that classical (or any) mythology is equivilant to historical fact, it is idiotic to believe that some of the oldest known writings of mankind were written without even a grain of fact behind them (creation stories aside), and thus their 'literature' qualities endure while the history behind it simply withers away. I cannot fathom how Prof. Morris could hold such views on history and literature.

And another thing, I find it quite abhorrent that some would consider historians to be weak writers. I have read, whether assigned by a class or just on my own, some mind numbingly boring stories written by professional writers. I have also read a good deal of excellent fiction. Conversely, I have read some wonderful histories (two that stick out most notably would be Woodward's 'The Strange Career of Jim Crow' and Starkey's 'Elizabeth: The Struggle for the Throne', but there are numerous others I could name), that read as easily as some fictions. Unfortunately, the great stereotype of historians and their works comes from some of the older and dryer texts that do not seem to catch the imagination as well as most works of fiction (although I found Trevelyan's study on the Glorius Revolution, an old and somewhat dry text, while slightly more difficult of a read, just as fascinating as anything I had read recently).

Anyways, that's just what I think.

Steve


Derek Charles Catsam - 6/16/2004

I have indeed been out of the loop, at a wedding in New Hampshire and then stuck in Harrisburg, PA after two days of dealing with car disaster.
Methinks Jeremy Boggs rather misses the point of my post -- annoying to have put that much effort in only to have it so misread, but the other four commenters got it, so I guess I'll still sleep ok tonight. (Me also thinks he needs to introduce himself to Mr. Dictionary. He uses the word "pretentious" in a way that makes me think that he does not know what it means).
In any case, I guess Mr. Boggs does not think that professional historians ought to have the right to decide what goes on in their classrooms. I use literature in my history classes. (I thought I was pretty clear on that earlier -- ahh, yes,in fact I was.)And while novelists might have a great deal to teach us about their writing, or about their novels, I am not certain that there are many who are equipped to answer the very broad question of how fiction should be used in teaching history. The other examples are not germane -- art historians, cartographers, and so forth, and represent a bit of reductio ad absurdum, as my comments about the question to the novelist neither implied nor intended to be fungible. Iam interdisciplinary by both training and nature,and am a member of APSA, so Mr.Boggs can save his lectures forsomeone else -- I'll gladly debate him about our respective knowledge and use of other disciplines some other time.
Further, I am not certain I did define "actual works of history" so I am a bit curious how Boggs can upbraid me for my definition. Finally, it seems the last refuge of po-mos to claim that others do not know what it means. In my case, I get it, I just think most of it is nonsense. I'll promise you that my colleagues here get it -- better than I do, I'd say, and better than Mr. Boggs I'd bet. It is not a matter of "getting" but rather a matter of disagreeing. Despite the fact that we live in an era where we are all supposed to build one another's self esteem, I think academia would have been a better world if enough people years ago had called the po-mo and deconstructionist nonsense for the BS that so much of it is.
And yes, history is, in a sense, "our discipline" if by that you mean that we are the ones who will be teaching and writing it in the future. Apparently it does not bother you that novelists and moviemakers are taken seriously as historians. I do not think anyone owns history, but that does not mean that all interpretations are equally valid. And when an English professor asks a novelist how literature should be used in college history classrooms, with all of the underlying issues about which I wrote already in the post, it does get my dander up a little, yeah.
dc


Tom Bruscino - 6/15/2004

Since Derek seems to be out of the loop, I'll bite on this one. I can buy asking art historians and art curators about how to bring art into the classroom, just like I can buy asking music historians how to bring in music. And historical geographers also would provide useful information on maps for classroom teaching. But what they all have in common is that they are historians of one stripe or another, so they understand the topic.

It is not absurd or pretentious to say that most novelists, musicians, and film makers know little or nothing about history, let alone teaching history. It is not their job to know or teach history; their job is writing fiction, writing and performing music, or making films. It is our job as trained historians to integrate their work into the fact-based narrative of our classes. And like it or not, most actual works of history that are credible are in written form. Until novelists, musicians, and film makers show they have a firm grasp on the written literature that forms the base of our work, then I do not see how they can provide any really useful insights into mixing their work into that base.

Look, I play Johnny Cash's song "Mister Garfield" to my classes to bring home to them the emotion brought forth by the assassination of a president most of them have never heard of. But I have a feeling bringing Mr. Cash, if he were still alive, to the classroom to discuss civil service reform in the Gilded Age might not be the best idea.


Jeremy Boggs - 6/11/2004

"why, precisely, are we asking a novelist (and writing professor, though one who only teaches upper level seminars and grad students in creative writing and not even English surveys) about how college history professors should be teaching our discipline?"

If you've translated the conversation correctly, your colleague wasn't asking, as you state, how historians should be "teaching our discipline." He/she was asking how historians could bring more sources into the classroom, a far different question, one that still leaves the teaching power in the historian's hands.

To claim that "history" is "our discipline" (meaning a historians discipline) is arrogant at best, similar to the arrogance of your so-called postmodern colleagues who, if your account is correct, have seriously oversimplified postmodernism.

Of course we should ask novelists how to integrate novels into history classes, just like we should ask geographers how to integrate maps into the classroom. We should also ask artists, art historians, and art curators how to integrate art into classroom teaching, and ask musicians how to bring music in as well. We should ask film makers how to bring movies into the classroom. To think that historians are the sole mediators of all historical information is absurd and blatantly pretentious. Your definition of "actual works of history" is narrow, and relies on the fallacy that history is accurate when it is written in words, as if words are any better at expressing ideas than sounds or images.


Grant W Jones - 6/11/2004

Keith Windschuttle has some great stuff on his website:

http://www.sydneyline.com

He, and other Aussies, were/are heavily influenced by that great philosopher from down under: David Stove. There work is a good antidote to Po-Mo foolishness.


Ralph E. Luker - 6/11/2004

Derek, You remind me vaguely of Robert Moats Miller's line about Woodrow Wilson at Versailles: he was like "a virgin in a bawdy house screaming for a glass of lemonade."


Tom Bruscino - 6/11/2004

Derek, Excellent comments on your experiences. I look forward to hearing about the rest.

For the record, I agree with the student about using violence to protect your property. It's actually in many ways a remarkably silly question. Does the person defending their property know the thief is hungry? What property is the thief taking? Is he or she breaking and entering a home in the middle of the night? Can the defender use nonlethal violence? How about the police? If the person who is being robbed calls the police, presumably they are going to use some level, even minimal, of force to apprehend the thief. Does it matter that he or she is hungry? Maybe a better question would be if you were on a jury and the hungry thief was on trial, would you care that he or she was trying to feed his or her family when coming to a verdict? I would answer yes, but the thief would still need to be punished depending on the severity of the crime. We are a nation of laws. And we all have the right to defend our property. I know the idea of property might seem disgustingly capitalist to Derek's colleague, but many of our freedoms stem from defending property (see Richard Pipes).

The student seems to have things figured out a whole lot better than a teacher who would make an argument with an asinine question like, "Have you ever been hungry?" Stephen and I encountered that nonsense recently when an arrogant student who we did not know came up to us in the middle of a private conversation to try to quiz us on Chomsky and globalization (he had overheard us talking to someone else about Chomsky). When we took him seriously and answered all of his questions, he asked us whether we knew any poor people. Those types of questions are so blindly presumptuous and ignorant they make me sick to my stomach--because they are not questions, they are attempts to discredit what someone believes through personal attacks. As if this guy knew anything about Stephen's or my background through five minutes of conversation. As if Derek's colleague knew anything about where that student was coming from, what hurdles she had overcome in her life, what experiences she brought to that classroom. I applaud her for replying with sarcasm to an inane question. She might have been the only intellectual in that exchange.