Nov 23, 2004
Che T-Shirts for Sale
I think I'll reserve comment.
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Chris Matthew Sciabarra - 11/27/2004
Hi Chris,
I only placed quotes around the word "rights" because I do come from the traditional libertarian perspective that speaks of individual rights; these most assuredly have economic, social, and cultural implications, but I'd be hard pressed to speak in terms of specifically "cultural" rights, for example. That said, I do believe that there are very important extra-political preconditions and effects entailed in the very notion of rights, and it is this larger and richer context that I think essential to the achievement and sustenance of rights.
As for the issue of revolution: Yes, of course, there comes a point at which revolution becomes the only means of toppling rights-suppressing regimes. But I think there is much to be said about the means that one uses in launching such a revolution, since, in many cases, violent practices become institutionalized in the establishment of a new political arrangement.
chris l pettit - 11/25/2004
I appreciate the reference and would be happy to help you build up some royalties : ) I must note that the fact that you put the quotes around ESCR rights is somewhat discouraging...it kind of supports the remarks I made below about not recognising all universal human rights, but only those in the ICCPR (and only particular ones in that treaty as well). it might also just be me reading into the quotations and I apologise if I am misinterpreting.
Note that I do not support or deny Che's atrocities, as from a human rights standpoint they were unacceptable. I simply wanted to relate the positives behind the Che mystique and the quality ideals that he was originally striving for that one can find in his writings. I was just wondering if there is some threshold within all of us that can be crossed that would cause us to believe that insurrection is the only way to get rid of the powerful and those who would violate human rights and liberties. One can only be persecuted for so long before reaching a point of hopelessness...and there are very few of us sufficiently trained in meditation and self reflection to be able to fight off the primal urges and frustrations. In his youthful idealisms you can almost see the change from empathy and the desire to help the poorer peoples to the adoption of the position that armed insurrection and violence was the only way to achieve social justice...at which point he became almost as big of a hypocrite as those he was fighting against.
CP
www.wicper.org
Chris Matthew Sciabarra - 11/24/2004
Chris P:
I'm not sure if there is much in the way of libertarian work on economic, social, and cultural "rights," but I do think there is a growing body of libertarian literature that discusses rights and political systems as embedded in social and cultural contexts. On this, I hope I can be forgiven a little self-promotion, but check out my book Total Freedom, which features a chapter or two on recent work in libertarian circles that is very encouraging in this area, with emphasis on works by many of my L&P colleagues. It also sports an extensive bibliography.
David T. Beito - 11/24/2004
The main problem I have with the Che craze is that there are so many other possible, and more admirable, examples of "rebels" that can be embraced by idealistic youth. A few that come to mind are Zapata, Malcolm X, Frederick Douglass, Thoreau, etc. Why Che? Is it the high checkbones?
Max Schwing - 11/24/2004
I enjoyed the Motorcycle Diaries, exactly for the absence of politics and at the same time I condemn it for that.
You can't talk about someone like Che if you forget to remind people (who are obviously not interested enough to know more about him) of the cruel change in his behaviour. It is hinted at in this film, when the question arises, whether to do a peaceful change or a military one. Che answers that weapons are necessary. So, this is what will happen and what somehow clouds the rest of the movie imo.
The pictures are wonderful, the journey is like a fairy tale, and the situation in Chile and Peru is translated pretty good, don't take me wrong on that.
But still, it will make him only more idealistic in the eyes of the youth and they tend to be ignorant about the rest of his days....
David T. Beito - 11/24/2004
Yes, much better!
Aeon J. Skoble - 11/24/2004
For all the areas in which I respect Rothbard's contributions, I have to say this one seems largely clueless. He seems here to buy the myth that Che was attempting to "liberate" people -- Rothbard of all people should understand that communism isn't liberating.
chris l pettit - 11/24/2004
Had to opportunity to see the movie at the World Cinema Festival in Cape Town this week...nice adaptation of the book.
I think maybe it is what you take from the Che story...his social justice instincts are strong and the spirit of the ideals that he stood for are strong (equality, human rights, anti-oppression, indigenous peoples rights). it is how he went about accomplishing them that is questionable. it is interesting to see how his youthful idealism turns as he gains power and becomes jaded about whether the ignorants in society will ever cease to be self interested and insist of ignoring their ability to reason and know right from wrong. Does it happen to all of us at some point? How do we present it?
I have also been away for a couple days and did not get to respons to the thoughtful comments to a post below. I would really appreciate some recommendations in terms of reading materials pertaining to libertainian ideals regarding human rights as it pertains to economic social and cultural rights. I have read much of Ayn Rand (and tend to abhor her due to what are seen as fatal fundamental flaws in her idealisms), as well as a good deal of libertarian economic thery and civil rights theory. I do dislike political labels and try to work towards human rights and peace in my legal work. I try to acknowledge the good and bad in each political position and know that most of us are trying to make the world a better place. unfortunately, the majority tend to be either naive, misled or miseducated, or following a political, economic, or religious ideology that involves blind faith that is imposed on others instead of looking to the universalisms that we all share. I am quite interested in libertarian views on human rights (I am well versed on the civil rights aspect...some tend to go very overboard and crush other rights...we could have a great discussion about flaws in the libertarian view of property and property law) and would really appreciate input from such respected scholars as those who post at L&P.
Whether it was the clumsiness of my post, or the perception imbued on what I was saying (I suspect a bit of both)...i do hope for meaningful and educational conversations in the future.
CP
www.wicper.org
Dennis Josefsson - 11/24/2004
Roderick T. Long - 11/24/2004
For a libertarian semi-defense of the Che mystique, see this obituary that Rothbard wrote for him.